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Water knots

doug rouse · · Denver, CO. · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 660

I'd also like to add that as a teenager, I took numerous rafting trips, and we'd use the knot to tie all of the dunnage in. Didn't have one come undone on the river either...

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Thank you Willian Kramer for starting this thread, and also rgold for bringing up the importance of inspecting existing sling anchors you plan to use, and the idea of using double fisherman knots on webbing you leave behind for permanent rappel anchors. This is all really important information for new and less experienced climbers. I've seen too many climbers implicitly trust and use webbing, sling, or static rope anchors without checking to see if the knot(s) are tied correctly, if the tails are long enough, and if the material is in good shape. Let alone inspecting whether the tree or rock it is tied around is in good shape or safe to use too.

The link that user divnamite posted shows that cyclic loading and unloading of the knot causes it to come undone. Tom Moyer also shows that using overhand knots on the tails of the water knot resolves this problem. I will say though that I've seen these overhand safety knots come undone on one local climb. It was unusually thick webbing that was used, so the lack of flexibility in the material probably played a part in it. First time I went up the climb in the season the overhand safety knots on the tails were fine although the stiff webbing really didn't allow it to cinch down nicely. The next time up it a month or two later, the overhand safety knots on the tails had come undone.

That being said, one of the reasons for me posting here was that I was practicing today how to make proper double fisherman knots on webbing for the scenario of having to leave behind a permanent rappel anchor or reinforcing an existing one. As this knot doesn't look quite the same as on rope. I'm quite used to tying it on cord for prusik and accessory cords and what it should look like.

What I found is that you can't make a double or triple fisherman incorrectly on webbing due to the flat nature of the material. If you accidentally do not make the cross in the webbing in the first wrap and then wrap behind it before sending the tail underneath and through all the wraps, it still makes a proper fisherman knot. Where as if you do this with round cord or rope, you don't end up with a fisherman because the two or three wraps of rope want to sit side by side with each other, not slide over the top of each other like webbing.

I tied two double and then triple fishermans in webbing side by side as if making stopper knots at the end of rope(s) for rappelling, one the wrong way without the cross in the wrap, and the other the correct way with the cross in the wrap and they both look exactly the same when dressed and tightened. The only thing the seemed possible to do incorrectly was get the orientation of the two double fisherman in relation to each other on opposite sides when making a loop for anchor, or a sling. Such that one knot would have the one strand over another strand next to the side of the other knot that is two parallel wrapped strands. Although I've never seen any pull data or information to suggest that this could or would be dangerous. I just know it's not the way to tie these knot when making a loop of cord.

A direct by product of this experimentation made me also realize that when you have made a double or triple fisherman incorrectly with round cord or rope where you did not make the cross in the rope before making additional wraps, you can fix it easily without untying and re-tying it by pulling one of the wraps over the other, or the in the triple fisherman case, two of the wraps.

Can anyone verify that this is correct?

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
bearbreeder wrote: never mind water knots ... you need to inspect for wear or rodent marks ... ;)
You forgot about ants nest too, formic acid secreted from their mandibles :-)
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252
Rockbanned wrote:Bullshit. Water Knot is the only knot your supposed to use for webbing from everything I've read and been taught by guides. it's the smoothest knot that keeps webbing neat and not kinked all to shit. With long tails and a stopper knot with each tail...
What knot would that be? :p

Water knots are fine, as long as you treat them as they are rather than assuming they will function just like a triple fisherman's.
Serge S · · Seattle, WA · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 683
youtube.com/watch?v=mXe-8Gm…
He hypothesizes that the water knot can be undone by catching on a rock edge or a twig. I think that can also happen with a double fisherman's,

I like Wikipedia's recommendation "for additional security each end should be tied in a double overhand stopper knot around the other standing end" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water…). It takes a lot of webbing, but it addresses Siebert's scenario and can leave the water knot clearly visible for inspection,
Billcoe · · Pacific Northwet · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 930

Why is it called the "Water Knot"?

I was told years ago by an old timer that it was because you were suppose to "set it" by soaking the (tied ring bend knot) in water and then pull hard on it to all but lock it in place until you needed it to untie. Otherwise you get cyclic loading and stories like these. Leave a large tail as well.

Note the fella upthread using it on the river and never having once seen it come undone? VS lots of folks with "my cams all fell to earth when my sling came undone on P6 of the Prow" stories. I'm with Rgold on using the double fishermans for rap anchors. They usually get cut off anyway as the aged water knot is a bear to untie.

Soak it: set it: check it periodically.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

it's interesting that this has come back up as an issue, probably due to the recent report about the guide who was killed in the tetons.

last Thursday night after I finished my hangboard workout, for some odd reason I decided to take a look at the knots in the webbing for my weight plates. I tied these with water knots probably 10 years ago, give or take. the weights vary from little 2-1/2 pounders up to sets of (3) 10 pound plates lashed together.

son of a motherless goat! almost all of them had crept a huge amount. several of them had already come partially undone (as in the tail had already escaped one bend). that was pretty sobering - I would never have guessed that, despite of the fact that I am very aware of water knots creeping. I figured the weight would be way too low or something like that would keep them from creeping much.

I did have one group of (3) 10 pound plates where I had used a double fisherman's knot in the webbing, and it was fine.

I generally use the double fisherman's knot if I know that the webbing is for a permanent installation (ie rap anchor), and regularly inspect any webbing that I use with water knots, which isn't all that often. However, it makes me even more reluctant than ever to climb on someone else's gear.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
slim wrote: that was pretty sobering - I would never have guessed that, despite of the fact that I am very aware of water knots creeping. I figured the weight would be way too low or something like that would keep them from creeping much.
If I understand the process correctly, the low weight would actually make it more likely to creep. The knot tightens under load, but when the load is released, it loosens up a bit over time. Because of this, a small bit slips through before the knot cinches up under load again. A smaller force would cause it to cinch up less and therefore be easier for it to loosen more over time once unloaded.

Think about it like this: you tie two identical slings with the same knot. Then you connect a 5lb weight and 10lb weight and do a factor 1 fall drop with the weight. Which sling is going to be harder to untie?

One solution I've heard of would be to sew the loose ends to the sling so they can't creep. I'm not sure weather this sewing would compromise the strength of the webbing, haven't seen any data that points one way or another.
mtc · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 15

The water knot (ring bend) is secure tied in webbing or cord. Just check it regularly. If you're in the habit of rapping off whatever tat is there without a thorough inspection you might bust your head.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347
mtc wrote:The water knot (ring bend) is secure tied in webbing or cord. Just check it regularly. If you're in the habit of rapping off whatever tat is there without a thorough inspection you might bust your head.
Not worth the risk or required vigilance; double fisherman's all the way, webbing or cord!
jc5462 · · Hereford, Arizona · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 0

I have had them slip in 9/16" "Super Tape" as it is thicker, narrower and smoother. I am always cautious of the super tape! Always check!!!

Make sure any knot is tied correctly, dressed properly, with no daylight and has minimum 2" tails!

For the "Knot Geeks"
A knot is generally to tie 2 ends together (usually the same piece)

A bend is for connecting 2 different pieces together

A hitch is tied around an object

Tom Moyers info on knot testing is very good and well tested and has been an accepted results for more than a decade. If you have not read it, I highly recommend you do.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
eli poss wrote: If I understand the process correctly, the low weight would actually make it more likely to creep. The knot tightens under load, but when the load is released, it loosens up a bit over time. Because of this, a small bit slips through before the knot cinches up under load again. A smaller force would cause it to cinch up less and therefore be easier for it to loosen more over time once unloaded. Think about it like this: you tie two identical slings with the same knot. Then you connect a 5lb weight and 10lb weight and do a factor 1 fall drop with the weight. Which sling is going to be harder to untie? One solution I've heard of would be to sew the loose ends to the sling so they can't creep. I'm not sure weather this sewing would compromise the strength of the webbing, haven't seen any data that points one way or another.
hmm, i could see this being the case if i had originally tied them not very tight, but man i reefed on them like hell when i first tied them. i have also been curious about using a minor sacrificial sewing job. it would take some practice to get it to where it doesn't slip, but yet you can still easily rip it if you want to untie the webbing.
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
slim wrote: hmm, i could see this being the case if i had originally tied them not very tight, but man i reefed on them like hell when i first tied them. i have also been curious about using a minor sacrificial sewing job. it would take some practice to get it to where it doesn't slip, but yet you can still easily rip it if you want to untie the webbing.
You wouldn't want to just rip the stitches out. That could damage the webbing. Instead you would want to cut out the stitches with a knife. I'm imagining something simple with a speedy stitcher, provided the holes wouldn't damage the webbing
John Barritt · · The 405 · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,083

You're supposed to untie slings and re-tie them every outing. Expecting a knot (any knot) to stay tied on it's own without inspection for years is bad juju.

The water knot is bomb proof properly dressed and popped to tighten and lock. JB

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
eli poss wrote: You wouldn't want to just rip the stitches out. That could damage the webbing. Instead you would want to cut out the stitches with a knife. I'm imagining something simple with a speedy stitcher, provided the holes wouldn't damage the webbing
i think you would be way more likely to damage the webbing with a knife. if you did a few stitches parallel to the length of the webbing and used a light thread (ie not something burley like nylon upholseter thread) i don't think it would do much to the webbing material.
mtc · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 15

Guys, the creative thinking is admirable but the cool thing about using the water knot (besides it being a tidy way to join webbing) is the ability to fairly easily untie it when repurposing a sling for a rappel anchor. Back in the day some climbers would stitch the tag ends down tight to make a permanent sling, while keeping a couple knotted but unstitched slings for rap anchors. Although it uses more webbing and doesn't look so nice, the double fisherman's bend is certainly a permanent and secure alternative to stitching tag ends down.

Furthermore, although the thought of carrying a knife while climbing seems ridiculous, quickly cutting a sewn sling open (not using it to carefully remove stitches) might save the day when darkness or a storm threatens. A razor blade taped inside your helmet is a cool trick. But carry on, it's fun thread!

ELA · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 0

Late to the party, but such threads never really are outdated. In the 1970's Bill Forrest took a bunch of slings to test; I cleverly thought I'd invented the "beer knot," as scores of others no doubt thought as well. Threw one of my 1" slings with that tied into the group, and lo and behold, it was the only sling that tested to the FULL loop strength, essentially not weakening the sling at all, compared to every other knot. It is tedious to tie, and worse with anything under 1", making it very impractical for onsite anchor threading use, but at home making over the shoulder runners is fine. One huge advantage, is that it can be bounce-tightened, yet still easily loosened and dismantled if you need a sling for anchor construction, and it is immune to accidental untying by the nature of its unique snake-eating-its-tail form, which appears to prevent webbing creep as well.

Nick Hatch · · Seattle, WA · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 0
ELA wrote: In the 1970's Bill Forrest took a bunch of slings to test; I cleverly thought I'd invented the "beer knot," as scores of others no doubt thought as well. Threw one of my 1" slings with that tied into the group, and lo and behold, it was the only sling that tested to the FULL loop strength

ELA, you got my attention with this one. I dig the beer knot, and have often wondered about its history. 

Bruce Smith, in 1995, says he learned about the beer knot from Peter Ludwig about six years earlier. Your antidote brings the history of the knot back at least another decade, and makes sense with the name as recounted by Smith, "... something about beer being stronger than water."

1) Why the modesty? Maybe you're not the first to do it, but it's a bizarre knot. Do you have any reason to think that others stumbled across it too? 

2) Why'd you call it the beer knot? Because of its strength? I can't image many people were pull testing tape slings in the '70s...
Evan LovleyMeyers · · Seattle · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 330

From my experience I depends on how you tie it. Just like the figure 8 if ether is tied so both loose end are together making a teardrop shaped loop the knots will roll and come out. But tied so one live end and a dead end come out together making a true circle loop will hold.

Stihl Born · · Ohio · Joined Feb 2018 · Points: 0

I always preferred the beer knot over the water knot. Then I got me a Pfaff 332 and some Dynema thread and now I just sew all my own slings. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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