How risk tolerance develops

climbing friend,

I am sorry for your accidental. Hopefully you are having the better feelings, and may soon perform bold, difficult, yet enjoyable, cutting-edge flash, with forearm become refresh at crux. Yes it is true, the falling or the bailing is complete situational, and it is complete appropriate to push and fall above gear in some situation but not others, although anyone may become unlucky or making the wrong decision, myah?

"Through wind and through snow, few men hear the call to push on."
- Herman Buhl
- John Long

- Aleks Zebastian

"Adventure is not for every man, and that’s the charm of it."
- Herman Buhl
- John Long

- Aleks Zebastian

"Dangers easily managed are not true dangers. True dangers are those that most men foreswear."
- Herman Buhl
- John Long

- Aleks Zebastian

"Every man must make his own choices, and every man must climb his own mountain."

- Herman Buhl
- John Long

- Aleks Zebastian

Intuition is important and difficult to quantify, especially in climbing - an activity that teaches us to ignore our amygdala's warning that we have no business being so high off the ground. This desensitization is the process of getting more experienced and comfortable right? We can "feel" the reality of this process when we have been off the rock for some time and we have to recondition ourselves to exposure, risk etc. I know I'm always a little more tentative my first time out in a while.

So when we arrive at a decisional crossroads on a climb, we have this ingrained evolutionary system telling us to get back on solid ground, but we ignore it because we also thrive on challenge and accomplishment. But at some point, as in your (OP) climb, the intuition joins in the warning and says really loudly: "Danger!" at a level that rises above the other "normal" warning signals. At that point we can choose to listen to it or not, and for me that is where the real risk is, when we ignore that intuition - in denying what we FEEL in favor of what we THINK. If I am trying to outthink my "gut feeling" then I am engaged in trying to cognitively defeat a system that is trying it's best to keep me alive. I guess that's the line we all walk, and not just in climbing.

John Barritt wrote: Me too! I was four years in before my first trad leader fall. I can still count lead falls (trad) on my fingers. I've down climbed off stuff, switched leads on multi-pitch a time or two (both ways) and have had to bail in the rain twice. The thing to consider here is fall avoidance rather than "risk assessment" when faced with a possible fall. Risk assessment is over when you step off the deck. The whole thing boils down to a cool head and thinking your way through problems. I lived through a "freesolo phase" in my late twenties. This was accomplished with a falling is not an option attitude. I soloed a lot of climbs I knew well and had done dozens of times without falls, if I got on something and wasn't feeling good I just climbed back down. To paraphrase Joe if I may, Go to climb, not to fall, not to hang, you will be amazed at what climbing is really all about. JB

Good stuff JB-- I ahve a friend of mine who is a really good golfer, he said to me once "you don't understand the pressure some times.." AH,, right I guess not.
Risk tolerance/risk assesment what ever should be almost instantaneous..if your really thinking about things, it's time to go home

Google "normalization of deviance", it apply a to this thought process while going thru a stressful risk assessment process.

"normalization of deviance is defined as: “The gradual process through which unacceptable practice or standards become acceptable. As the deviant behavior is repeated without catastrophic results, it becomes the norm.”

Healyje wrote: "assuming good gear" is the sticking point. Sure an experienced trad climber can make this kind of call on the quality of their placements, the majority of sport crossovers shouldn't be doing this as they don't have the experience or judgment for it.

I'm happy placing my trust in my gear. Otherwise I wouldn't be climbing. My anchors get weighted by my second and I'm not concerned.

I was never advocating inexperience trad leaders to be climbing climbs at the edge of the limit.

Healyje wrote:I personally still think it's a bad idea as it unavoidably develops into a habit / crutch that may not be available to you when runout someday and then you likely won't have the mental/emotional goods to deal.

Um. No. Like you say at the end route choice is important. If you can stitch up a climb with good gear then that is different from a runout climb. A climb where the quality of gear is unknown should always be treated with caution.

Healyje wrote:Also, for me (if I were climbing for 'safety') the "safe move" would be pick a different route I knew I could do clean if I'm not prepared to risk a fall. Again, to each his own.

I don't see how that weighting good gear is more risky than weighting your arms on a hold.

If I'm doing a route several grade below my limit then I'm not stitching the thing up. The consequences of falling is much worse.

Oh and lets not pretend that weighting trad gear is a new thing. The old pioneers were over 60 years ago.

(Though like I said. I take little pride in a non clean ascent. Clean ascents are much more satisfying. But I can still have FUN!)

patto wrote: I take little pride in a non clean ascent. Clean ascents are much more satisfying. But I can still have FUN!)

in the grand scheme of things I've been very happy to have arrived at the top of many climbs I had no business being on. sometimes its all about getting to the top no matter what fucking way you did it.

T Roper wrote:in the grand scheme of things I've been very happy to have arrived at the top of many climbs I had no business being on. sometimes its all about getting to the top no matter what fucking way you did it.

Agreed!

Though only once have I felt that I was on a climb that I had no business being on. I believe I declared as much to my belayer! It was an R/X rated slab climb with sparse micro protection. But I got it clean and safe. :-D

No business being on? In many ways though that is what climbing is about. It still is one of my proudest leads. (I didn't go in blind. I knew exactly what I'd be facing.)

> more about the exposure and the injury in the accident that shifted your odds perception

Fairly mild as climbing injuries go. One broken ankle, on a single-pitch climb in my home state, within crawling distance from the car. A big part of my concern is that, of the other similarly dangerous situations I've been in, most were out of my home state, with an hour+ approach and several pitches up.

I guess the main lesson I was trying to share is that it is apparently possible to go from a fairly risk averse mentality to a somewhat reckless one in just a couple of years, without intending to, simply by exposing yourself to situations that make risky behavior tempting.

Corollary: the risk of dangerous behavior is not just that you might fail, but that you might subconsciously learn the wrong lesson from succeeding,

I'm giving the bS factor on this thread a 10

I just love analysis by some who think they know

john strand wrote:I'm giving the bS factor on this thread a 10 I just love analysis by some who think they know

welcome to the proj brah!

This reminds me of a talk that a hang-glider test pilot gave. He said that everyone talks about Murphy's Law "if it can go wrong, it will go wrong", but not many people actually behave like they believe it is true. However, his insight was that there is an Inverse Murphy's Law: "If it didn't go wrong, it couldn't have gone wrong", and many folks behave this way frequently. His illustration was a particularly tricky landing zone that he routinely tested gliders on for many, many flights. One day he had a very close call, but survived mostly unscathed. Upon reevaluation of the landing sight, it was surprising he and his fellow pilots hadn't been killed already; they no longer use that site. But, for a long while, they assumed "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" which is not always a good policy with risk mitigation.

Serge Smirnov wrote:Fairly mild as climbing injuries go. One broken ankle, on a single-pitch climb in my home state, within crawling distance from the car.

I wouldn't normally describe a broken ankle as fairly mild.

NeilB wrote:But, for a long while, they assumed "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" which is not always a good policy with risk mitigation.

Reactive risk management is pervasive in our society. So much of our laws and regulations as based off past precedence...

Sure we also design and engineering a bunch of stuff with safety in mind in a proactive way but in many other aspects safety is very much reactive.

Before 9/11 the policy for dealing with terrorists on airplanes was to concede to their demands with the aim of getting the plane on the ground and sorting the mess out there. That idea went out the window....

Serge Smirnov wrote:Fairly mild as climbing injuries go. One broken ankle, on a single-pitch climb in my home state, within crawling distance from the car.

Distance to car aside, a broken ankle is not "mild". I think your risk exposure also re-graded your injuries scale! Also, if you think of the decision that lead to the accident as "a dumb move" or "obvious mistake", it may give you a greater sense of control than you have. Unless in the process you learned something concrete and specific, you very well may do a "dumb move" again. On some level, as participants in a high risk sport, we all making judgement error every time we climb. Just ask most non-climbers.

Serge Smirnov wrote:Corollary: the risk of dangerous behavior is not just that you might fail, but that you might subconsciously learn the wrong lesson from succeeding,

I know what you mean, but I would rather learn the wrong lesson from succeeding than fail. :)

climbing friend,

"Through wind and snow, few men hear the call to press on."

- Herman Buhl
- John Long

- Alex Zebastian

I guess I have done the "dumb move" hundreds of times then. I enjoy run out climbs and have tons of them ( by todays standards, hundreds) and I am firmly convinced that you can learn safety each and every time.

Each person has perception of risk and that doesn't translate well to all.

patto wrote:The consequences of falling is much worse. Oh and lets not pretend that weighting trad gear is a new thing. The old pioneers were over 60 years ago. (Though like I said.

Sixty years ago? Hmm, that was before there was 'gear' and clean climbing. People climbed on pins then and when they hung on them it was called 'aid'. When I started forty-three years ago no one hung on gear and the whole ethic was definitely no dogging. If folks were doing it they sure didn't talk about it or admit it and none of us ever encountered any of it as we would definitely have talked about it if any of us had.

As far as falling goes. I only climb trad and I've fallen a LOT and I personally don't see how you're really pushing your limits if you're not falling. No different with my rope soloing which I do pretty close to my limit. I've also always tried to do FAs and if you do a lot of them and do hard FAs then it's pretty damn hard to predict what you're going to encounter in the way of moves and pro accept in a very general way. I've been stuck on the top of p3 of a seven pitch FA I've been working on for awhile due to a stretch where taking care of my wife, working and loss of a partner have all kept me away from it. It goes up over six or seven roofs and I've been stuck at the lip of the third and largest one. That pitch up to the roof has an R/X mid-section and last time I was up trying to push the roof I took a 50-60 footer. The pro we encountered on that pitch was somewhat marginal and highly technical and certainly nothing you'd ever want to hang on at all.

I took the fall on a good piece in the roof after that section, but my point is that if you are going to be doing trad FAs, or really trad at all, you really shouldn't get reliant on hanging on gear as there are a lot of times where there just won't be gear to hang on. I suppose if you stick with routes you know, have tons of beta on, or are short enough to eyeball the whole thing.

Again, really bad idea from my perspective - particularly if you aspire to doing a lot of onsights and FAs.

You really aren't making sense. In one breath you espose how reliant you are on gear saving your life in falls. Then in another breath you are saying you shouldn't be reliant on it.

Healyje wrote:As far as falling goes. I only climb trad and I've fallen a LOT and I personally don't see how you're really pushing your limits if you're not falling.

Healyje wrote:my point is that if you are going to be doing trad FAs, or really trad at all, you really shouldn't get reliant on hanging on gear as there are a lot of times where there just won't be gear to hang on.

Besides who said anything about being reliant on hanging on gear? I believe I was quite clear about it earlier.

Healyje wrote:That pitch up to the roof has an R/X mid-section and last time I was up trying to push the roof I took a 50-60 footer. The pro we encountered on that pitch was somewhat marginal and highly technical and certainly nothing you'd ever want to hang on at all.

Nice story. But how is that relevant? If there is terrible gear then clearly hanging on it is a bad idea. Nobody here was suggesting otherwise.

john strand wrote:I guess I have done the "dumb move" hundreds of times then. I enjoy run out climbs and have tons of them ( by todays standards, hundreds) and I am firmly convinced that you can learn safety each and every time. Each person has perception of risk and that doesn't translate well to all.

Amen John. JB

patto wrote:You really aren't making sense. In one breath you espose how reliant you are on gear saving your life in falls....Then in another breath you are saying you shouldn't be reliant on it.

The difference is in knowing when you can fall and when you can't. And when you're in a situation where you can't fall - and you don't have any have gear to hang on - you better be prepared to deal.

patto wrote:Besides who said anything about being reliant on hanging on gear? I believe I was quite clear about it earlier.

I am. If you make a regular practice out of hanging on gear, or even an infrequent practice when it's crunch time, then you'll unavoidably become reliant on it whether you care to admit it or not.

patto wrote:Nice story. But how is that relevant? If there is terrible gear then clearly hanging on it is a bad idea. Nobody here was suggesting otherwise.

The point wasn't that you shouldn't hang on marginal gear, the point was that you if you're doing things you can't preview or onsight or FAs, then you'll end up in situations where you are run out, sometimes significantly, and there isn't gear to hang on and you have to be mentally and emotionally prepared to deal. It's that simple.

Healyje. You seem to have taken it upon yourself as a personal crusade to fight the notion that anybody should hang on gear. In the process you have continued to ignore practically everything else that is said in your quest to discredit anybody who may choose to rest on gear.

Healyje wrote: The difference is in knowing when you can fall and when you can't. And when you're in a situation where you can't fall - and you don't have any have gear to hang on - you better be prepared to deal.

We've been through this Healyje.

Climbing a hard climb with great protection can be approached differently from a run out climb. There is nothing new here, we all do the same. You have your limits just like everybody else.

Healyje wrote:If you make a regular practice out of hanging on gear, or even an infrequent practice when it's crunch time, then you'll unavoidably become reliant on it whether you care to admit it or not.

Yep. Reliant on it when climbing grades that I know there will be a good chance I can't do clean. Big deal if the gear if the gear is great, if the gear isn't great then I'll stick to stuff I can climb clean.

Healyje wrote:the point wasn't that you shouldn't hang on marginal gear, the point was that you if you're doing things you can't preview or onsight or FAs, then you'll end up in situations where you are run out, sometimes significantly, and there isn't gear to hang on and you have to be mentally and emotionally prepared to deal. It's that simple.

Yep.

And choosing to hang on gear on some climbs doesn't suddenly make you "mentally and emotionally" ill-prepared to deal with run outs.

Would you say the same about aid climbing? Does aid climbing make you unable to handle runouts in free climbing?