To say something or not to someone about to take she sharp end for the first time

An open partnership is one of the most important things about climbing fun and safe. Try to express your concerns in the most objective and clear way possible. If available, show pictures and videos. Work with her on a plan to get her climbing solid.

"...other people are free to do what they wish..." -- not while I'm tied into the other end of the rope.

To the OP, seriously, have her read the Will Gadd blog I posted earlier. No one is ready to lead ice until they are 100 percent on all their toprope climbs.

Ice climbing is more than thwacking your tools up a candlestick. Anyone with biceps can do that. Safe leading is just as much about having a true understanding of the conditions, and how the ice may be changing even as you climb it. Know when to swing hard and when to be delicate, etc. The only way to safely gain enough experience is to toprope a lot of ice in a lot of different conditions. Maybe have her practice placing screws on TR so she can get an idea of what that involves.

We're in this "Do the Dew" age in which people are going for rapid progression. They managed to get down a blue run on their snowboard without falling for their first time, so now they want to try a black diamond, and their friends who are eager to move on to the more interesting terrain egg them on. But climbing ain't snowboarding. You can get away with this on sport routes, sure. But there are trip reports here on MP in which a climber literally got on the Diamond of Longs Peak for their first multi-pitch route, "cuz it's only 5.10," and because their partner convinced them it would be fine. They got away with it after a mini epic, but shit can get real, real fast up there, so they were lucky. Like Gadd says in his blog, just because you got away with it doesn't mean you were right to be there in the first place. Have some goddamn humility in the mountains, people!

And yeah, yeah, it's a free country and no one can tell you what you can or can't climb, but fuck, more and more these bigger classic routes are getting more crowded, understandably, but a consistent and growing percentage of those people don't have any business bringing their shit-show up there in the first place, because they become everyone else's problem, if for no other reason than they are clogging up the normal flow of traffic. And most of us don't know how to say anything to these people in the moment, because yes, we prefer to stick to the egalitarian code in climbing that another person's decisions aren't our business, and also because there are so many people with "hair triggers" if you bring up a subject that's touchy for their ego. If you're not sure if you should be somewhere, you probably shouldn't.

I better cut this rant off here before I get into how many of these type of problems stem from characteristics I see in the Millennial generation, and this is coming from a guy who is technically included in that group (graduated high school in '01). I've been climbing since I was 12, though, so I've witnessed a lot of the changing demographics first-hand.

One of the first leads I ever did was a 5.5 at the Amphitheater in Gregory Canyon. At least I had the sense to pick a route I knew I could free solo, because that's basically what I did. A man who was maybe around 30 years old soloed up after my lead to check my pro, which he confirmed was worthless, and told me so in a firm but gentle manner. It ruffled my feathers for a stranger to butt into my business like that, but not too long after I was grateful to him. He might have saved my life, because he got me to slow down and think and study a little more. Even to this day, when I'm placing pro, I imagine a guy like that looking over my shoulder, analyzing if it's good or not. Obviously it's easier to intervene if you see a young kid making these type of mistakes, but we should be better about looking out for each other, no matter the person's age. That's one of the things that makes this community special. If this ramble gets someone to pause and think, then it's been worth it.

Some thoughts on how to bring up your concerns. Take your pick based on your take on the personality.

"I'm curious...I've shared a few concerns with you leading at this point but you are very confident that you're ready. Can you help me understand what I'm missing?" Can get the conversation started around the disconnect between your concerns and their confidence.

"I'm really impressed with your willingness to get after it. It's rare because most people are scared to lead ice. However, I'm concerned that you aren't quite ready. Let's talk through the lead. Where are you going to place pro? What happens if the ice is too thin there? Where next?" Essentially you want to get your partner to talk through the risks that you see (and they may be missing).

And, of course, the nuclear option: "I'm not comfortable belaying you on lead right now. I really care about you and it's just more risk than I'm willing to accept. Let me help you find another partner who is safe and would be willing to belay you."

Of course, if you get a lot of push back from this partner I would recommend moving on. This type of disconnect between risk, reward, and consequence can be very dangerous in the mountains. I want a partner who is willing to rationally consider risk and push through their fear; I run from partners who are unaware of the risk or choose to ignore real risks.

BoulderCharles, I like those suggestions. Thanks for sharing.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Put her on the sharp end. A few screws in and she'll gain a new respect for the effort required to lead nice. She might bail or she might finish the route. If she's a grown up woman, let her do it.

I second this. Keep the route to single pitch, not alpine/remote, let her try but remind to "sew it up"

Shepido wrote:I have a friend who is pretty set on leading soon, and I don't think they are ready for it... I am not sure what to do. On one hand I could express my concerns and try to dissuade them, on the other people are free to do what they wish, and I am afraid that my talk will fall on deaf ears and maybe if nothing else upset what confidence they do have. Surely I am not the first person to be in this situation, so I am sure some of you have been in this same position before. I'm curious what action you took, if any.

You don't know what to do?

This is climbing, it's not some "safe space" activity for the feint of heart looking to protect and shelter their partners/friends from hurt feelings.

I think you need to take a "no fucks given" attitude toward this situation and about how you communicate with partners if your hesitancy shows up often.

Tell them they are not ready and that you are not going to second behind them, period.

Tell them why you think that and offer some sort of alternative for them to consider: taking 1 on 1 instruction, taking a leading ice specific course.

She will either consider your opinion or not.

Either way you will have said your piece.

doligo wrote: I'd say tell your friend if she's ok soloing, go for it. I think once a person realizes they are soloing, they would at least make sure their pick placements are bomber. The leaders in my example most likely all had a false sense of security in being tied to the rope and their shitty screws.

This is the best advice in this thread.

Soloing ice is safer and easier than ~safely~ leading ice.

She would be able to try any number of questionable practices with a cord attached.

Also what wil her rack be? cams? Threads? Pins? screws?
Will she have a 'scepter'(s) (the pound in beak things?) more than three of them
( they can be excellent to ' sit' on at the belay )

or try the ~place tool, loop rope over and hang thing I see so much of?

I would like to think that a solo climber would be smooth and consistent, constantly
moving in complete control.

That would be the best for any one leading ice, but it takes some practice
(And then some)

Edit;

Just Solo wrote: Loop rope over a placement? .Seriously . . Never, EVER loop your life line over an ice tool.

in my rush to post I may have missed something - -
looping the tool. . With the rope. .The Handel
so not so over the top
Also. .,.
that word ~ rope ~
not the ~life line rope~ though it does read that way ! Thnx for that Catch!
Loops
" Reserve tethers, loops of old climbing rope, dedicated PAS like loops,
sorry about that . . , . .m
But it hi-Lited an old old school method that is now obsolete.

Let's not discuss what I said,
That said,
And Always being careful of the risk of cutting my life line

But given the dangerous as opposed to falling. I'll take the risk,

I'm skilled , careful to understand limits of my actions
under control
not ridged or dogmatic,
except for :
DO NOT LET GO >~>DO NOT FALL !

This is not where a nØ0ß should hear how to cheat up something

She has to read the will gadd stuff. He has 5-6 posts on leading ice, and ice climbing technique in general. The takedown of "the fall" video is of course the most important. But she needs to live with Will Gadd's advice for a bit.

As for the approach to the conversation. Say this:
"I'm super psyched that you are feeling ready to lead! Let's get you after it. I have a great climb for you to start out on: [insert grade 2 climb here. My first lead was shoestring gully, and it was perfect for getting my lead head on]
Here are the most important rules:
1. Every stick is bomb-proof.
2. You don't fall on ice.
You are going to rock it. Remember that THIS ISN'T Top roping"

I think the key to the discussion is WHAT she wants to lead. If Bridalveil, that's absurd. If a cruiser WI2-3 then that is probably more in line. Gotta start somewhere. It also depends on her level of skill. Does she know how to downclimb? Can she bail of she pumps out or panics? All very real possibilities for a new lead.

Michael Schneider wrote: or try the ~place tool, loop rope over and hang thing I see so much of?

Loop rope over a placement? Seriously, did you just recommend that? Tethers are another discussion. Never, EVER loop your life line over an ice tool.

Just Solo wrote: Loop rope over a placement? Seriously, did you just recommend that? Tethers are another discussion. Never, EVER loop your life line over an ice tool.

People like to loop the rope over the handle if they need to rest and can't get a screw in. I prefer to clip to the spike if I have one, or preferably, lead things within my ability.

Can't you just mansplain to her that she's not ready to lead yet?!? Do it or give up your man card.

I caution anyone who wants to lead ice without having first TRed a few hundred pitches (obviously depending on where you live and your access to ice, that may not be realistic)...

Learning to read the ice takes time. You need to know when to back off as well.

If they insist then I can't really stop them. Then I have to make a judgement call of: Do I support them and climb with them and try to mentor them? Or do I stay away and let their arrogance become someone else's problem? A lot of it depends on how they react when I try to caution them: are they cocky and blow me off? or do they listen and claim they will take it easy and only lead low-grade stuff for a while, etc?

Just Solo wrote: Loop rope over a placement? Seriously, did you just recommend that? Tethers are another discussion. Never, EVER loop your life line over an ice tool.

With newer tools, looping over the placement, is probably not a great idea since most have an edge on the top so they are easier to clean. I could easily see that cutting the rope.

Best bet is don't get so pumped. If you are routinely needing to rest on a climb, it is too hard for you and you should reconsider your objectives and perhaps your judgement.

I led with under 50 pitches on TR. But I hired a guide to mentor me on my first day out leading. He affirmed for me when I was ready. And I trusted him, and myself.
Several hundred TR pitches before leading? Maybe for someone who is unfocused, without a mentor or guide, and just plain bad on the ice. For most of us, that's excessive.

lukeweiss wrote:I led with under 50 pitches on TR. But I hired a guide to mentor me on my first day out leading. He affirmed for me when I was ready. And I trusted him, and myself. Several hundred TR pitches before leading? Maybe for someone who is unfocused, without a mentor or guide, and just plain bad on the ice. For most of us, that's excessive.

I took it as more of a metaphor , than go climb 100 routes . The point being - practice, follow, mock-lead 0N Top Rope,. Of course I could be wrong , if you can go to Ouray ice park in Colorado , and do laps, but I've said practice.

Someone told the old -skool , cold shower, knot tying practice,
that
and - running with frozen gravel balls- 'stupid-foul'weather in 'north Easters' climbing, for practice!
having a biviy fest, just for practice or ledge nights out. to make sure to get, the storm system you never wanted to use, storm proof & dialed in.

After a famous tragedy space blankets became the choice for wrapping up the rope & for a ground cloth, we'd buy Bulk, Used them up sometimes 2 or more at a time 10 - 15 , in a good season.
'I'd still roll that way if I was going to ice stomp. I'm not.

The for real concerns when ghung-ho meets ice is when the fan comes on,
and it will come on,
how ,doomed are you due to lack of experience .?
Can you adapt fast and correctly not make it worse?
(If you even get a chance)
Can you climb off or down climb leaving gear ?

lukeweiss wrote: This was magic.

Edit : glad You find me entertaining; I'm a "special kinda snow flake " And " You Know who you are" In the guide book. I am Absolutely every bit perfectly described by the phrase! : "This was Magic!" > Thankx for reminding me!,}B^7

If I had instmybut you could faceplant me
Tweekers are more reliable than tweeters ( 'C' MaGiK)
you caught me while I was looking for the right ice pic's
these are from MP, not me or mine,

1st one, Really fits The for real concerns when ghung-ho meets ice is when the fan comes on, and it will come on,

how doomed are you due to lack of experience .?

Can you adapt fast and correctly not make it worse?

(If you even get a chance)

Can you climb off or down climb leaving gear ?
Just saying I lived and loved that sort of short fun! It is excellent,
building blocks for stoke. The thing is when it comes down to a choice
that is what choice, it comes down to
>~> Scroll down and look at the other pictures

A bit of thread drift, but don't you love it when your climbing partner talks about gruesome climbing accidents right before you launch into your heroic lead? In that case please just don't say anything.

Michael Schneider wrote: I took it as more of a metaphor , than go climb 100 routes . The point being - practice, follow, mock-lead 0N Top Rope,. Of course I could be wrong , if you can go to Ouray ice park in Colorado , and do laps, but I've said practice. Someone told the old -skool , cold shower, knot tying practice, that and - running with frozen gravel balls- 'stupid-foul'weather in 'north Easters' climbing, for practice! having a biviy fest, just for practice or ledge nights out. to make sure to get, the storm system you never wanted to use, storm proof & dialed in. After a famous tragedy space blankets became the choice for wrapping up the rope & for a ground cloth, we'd buy Bulk, Used them up 10 - 15 , in a good season. 'I'd still roll that way if I was going to ice stomp. I'm not. The for real concerns when ghung-ho meets ice is when the fan comes on, and it will come on, how doomed are you due to lack of experience .? Can you adapt fast and correctly not make it worse? (If you even get a chance) Can you climb off or down climb leaving gear ?

This was magic.

lukeweiss wrote:I led with under 50 pitches on TR. But I hired a guide to mentor me on my first day out leading. He affirmed for me when I was ready. And I trusted him, and myself. Several hundred TR pitches before leading? Maybe for someone who is unfocused, without a mentor or guide, and just plain bad on the ice. For most of us, that's excessive.

It's all about learning to judge the ice. 50 pitches is a good start and better than nothing, but not enough... You need to climb in warm weather, cold weather, wet weather, colunms, slabs, thin ice, hanging cicles, bulletproof ice, sunbaked ice, chandeliered ice, slush, that nasty shit you get at the top of bulges that's half snow and half ice, snow over ice, ice over snow, really hard neve that is almost ice, hollow columns, detached ice, windows with water running behind them etc, etc, etc... You need to know how to climb in all those conditions and how to protect in all those conditions. And you need to have the judgement to know what you can handle and what you can't so you don't get into problems. So yeah, 50 pitches ain't enough...