Performance edging - TC Pros vs Katana lace vs Miura VS

Hey everyone,

So I currently own a pair of TC Pros, sized up for comfort and cracks (46). I tried on a pair of 45s, which actually fit very well for a performance fit. I know that some people own multiple pairs of TCs for different purposes, so I was curious how they compared with other performance edging shoes when sized tight, particularly given the flat last. I own a pair of Katana laces sized for performance (45.5), but they're on their 3rd sole and getting a little soft. Nevertheless, the downturned toe does still help a bit when standing on the small stuff, as with Miuras. So for those of you who size aggressively with TC Pros, how do they perform?

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Sized comfortably, they edge well for their size and are amazing in cracks, but as you said - no feel. I'm wondering why someone would want an aggressively sized TC Pro vs Miuras.

Check out Outdoor Gear Lab from side by side comparisons.

I had tight TC pros, they could stand on anything (at vertical and below), but I was never quite sure that I was standing on anything. All the sensitivity of a 2x4.

Unless you're getting pain in your big toe from the katana lace I would stick with them.

That being said I've also been trying out softer downturned shoes. Was working on a thin and techy route yesterday (mostly shit hands for downward force). Wore my tight skwamas and they did amazing. The sensitivity really helped when I had to swap on a tenuous thin edge.

I climb in a plethora of shoes. I am 46 street.
TC pros 46, all day, moderate (<5.11)
TC pro 45.5 (resoled once, so a little smaller). A little more sensitive, a little less comfy. Good on steeper, thinner stuff.
Katana Lace. These days my go-to shoe. Edges as well (?) as the TC, more sensitive, snd to me it's big advantage, it has a toe that just eats pockets and dimes. Less comfy, longest i have gone is 7 pitches.
And then there is the Genius. The shoe i wear for steep sport. Super sensitive, sticks like glue, as comfy an aggressive shoe i have used. And i have 20+ pairs of shoes. I sized them 45, borderline tight, but they really work.
SO really, it depends on what you are doing, and how much pain you are willing to endure. I have friends who wear the TC 2 sizes below street, they do NOT do multi-pitch in them without removing them at belays. And having tried some smaller sizes i do not find it is a shoe that work better sized down.
Ramble ramble ramble....

If you think about how well a shoe edges as a line graph with the Y axis as edging performance and X axis as how tight you size them, so tc pro's have good edging performance at larger sizes it quickly levels out as you downsize, this makes the tc pro's a exception though.
I think the katanas and the miura vs will edge nearly identically if both drastically down sized (I would give the miura vs a ever so slightly edge). The difference in edging ability will be in the larger sizes in which case the katanas are probably the best in the larger sizes.

I have significantly downsized TC pros that I use for hard techy granite single pitch at Index and Squamish. I also have a larger pair for multi pitch. The performance difference is noticeable enough to make an important difference on really tiny granite footholds. On easier routes with bigger feet the difference isn't noticeable. So downsizing TC pros is a viable strategy, depending on the climbing you do.

For reference, I wear 42.5 street and my small TC pros are 39.5. I've worn them on 10 pitch routes without discomfort, but I do take them off at every belay.

So...why do you use downsized TC Pros in place of a more inherently aggressive shoe like Miuras?

Seb: are you saying that TC Pros are the best of the lot sized up, whereas Miuras are the best sized down and Katanas are in the middle?

I find I enjoy a performance advantage while edging with my katana laces over the tc pros. I have both shoes in the same size. My quiver goes mythos 44.5 >;; TC's 45 >;; Katana Laces 45 >;; Scarpa Instinct VS 45.5

EDIT: my TC's have been resoled three times and the rest of my shoes are still on their original soles for whatever that's worth.

Ted Pinson wrote: Seb: are you saying that TC Pros are the best of the lot sized up, whereas Miuras are the best sized down and Katanas are in the middle?

Overall, this is a solid assessment. But really any of those shoes offer good (but diffferent) perfromance characteristics at a variety of sizes.

Ted Pinson wrote:So...why do you use downsized TC Pros in place of a more inherently aggressive shoe like Miuras?

I use both. The TC's are stiffer and more powerful. But they lack sensitivity and have a blunt, flat toe. So I use them typically on vertical to less than vertical granite with really really tiny footholds. Lots of this at one of my home crags- Index, stemming on little granite grains.

On steeper (vertical to slightly overhanging) rock with more "normal" small feet, the Miuras are better due to better sensitivity and better ability to pull in with your toes (due to downturn). The pointyness of the shoe also lets you get a toe into a small pocket or seam; this is impossible in the blunt TCs. So the Miuras are better for most vertical sport climbing (Smith, Tensleep, and the like), and steeper more featured granite trad.

Katanas offer similar advantages to Miuras. Just a different fit, and a flatter toe. Better for thin seams, not quite as good for micro edges.

Based on your needs, and since you already have TC's, I'd say replace your Katanas with a fresh new pair of Katanas, or with Miuras. Try both on and choose what fits better. This will give you more versatility than having two sizes of TCs.

So, tight TCs are amazing, but have a specific niche. For a more general performance shoe for sport climbing, Miuras or Katanas are a better choice.

Muscrat wrote:I climb in a plethora of shoes. I am 46 street. TC pros 46, all day, moderate (<5.11) TC pro 45.5 (resoled once, so a little smaller). A little more sensitive, a little less comfy. Good on steeper, thinner stuff. Katana Lace. These days my go-to shoe. Edges as well (?) as the TC, more sensitive, snd to me it's big advantage, it has a toe that just eats pockets and dimes. Less comfy, longest i have gone is 7 pitches. And then there is the Genius. The shoe i wear for steep sport. Super sensitive, sticks like glue, as comfy an aggressive shoe i have used. And i have 20+ pairs of shoes. I sized them 45, borderline tight, but they really work. SO really, it depends on what you are doing, and how much pain you are willing to endure. I have friends who wear the TC 2 sizes below street, they do NOT do multi-pitch in them without removing them at belays. And having tried some smaller sizes i do not find it is a shoe that work better sized down. Ramble ramble ramble....

since we're here...
what size are your katana laces? size squirrel doesnt have enough data yet apprently, and if you own muira lace your size there would be helpful for me too.
trying to find my size in katana lace and no one has them in store for a try-on.

Ted Pinson wrote:So...why do you use downsized TC Pros in place of a more inherently aggressive shoe like Miuras? Seb: are you saying that TC Pros are the best of the lot sized up, whereas Miuras are the best sized down and Katanas are in the middle?

Pretty much, you can't ever get ultimate edging performance in tc pro's due to the flat profile of the toe which is inherently a weak position (although good for cracks). I think this is where katanas beat tc pro's at edging, it's all about the knuckle box.

Yeah, I definitely notice an advantage in the Katanas, but they're also sized more aggressively so it was hard to compare. Thanks a lot, guys...this helps. Also (probably should have explained earlier) my home crag is Devil's Lake Quartzite trad, so: minimal friction, mostly vertical/slab, and microedging starts around 5.6.

Downtownt Kay wrote: since we're here... what size are your katana laces? size squirrel doesnt have enough data yet apprently, and if you own muira lace your size there would be helpful for me too. trying to find my size in katana lace and no one has them in store for a try-on.

FWIW I have roughly the same size feet and my quiver is:

TC Pro 46: all day comfort, crack
Katana Lace 45.5: performance fit, toes slightly curled but not crushed.
Miura Lace 45: fit about the same as Katanas

Katanas run a little smaller than most Sportiva Shoes, so you will probably want to size up a half size. I made the mistake of going too low (44.5) with my first pair and had to give them up because I was causing permanent nerve damage to my big toe. I could probably wear 45s, but it would be uncomfortable and probably not necessary, as they don't stretch much.

Where do y'all think the muira lace fits in this sportiva quiver?

Downtownt Kay wrote: since we're here... what size are your katana laces? size squirrel doesnt have enough data yet apprently, and if you own muira lace your size there would be helpful for me too. trying to find my size in katana lace and no one has them in store for a try-on.

Did you check with feathered friends? They were stocking the laces last summer.

On sizing, I'm 42 street (26.5cm), TC pro were 40.5 for performance (barely got big toe flat after stretch), Katana lace in 41.5 for comfort/jamming (great for wiggling in on .75 and .5 cracks). I give up edging performance with the katana in that size though, I think that a 41 would have been better, but it leads to a slight knuckle in my big toe that just hurts like hell for jamming hand cracks.

I've only climbed at the Lake once this Fall, but think it would be a great venue for an aggressively sized TC Pro. That what I was using and was psyched to have it on pretty much everything I climbed

Switching to TCs from Blancos this Fall was the primary reason a project of mine in Oregon went from falling every other move on TR to one hanging on TR and giving it real lead burns. For techie vertical climbing with thin edging where you need to stand on your feet, they are hands down the best shoe I've ever used. FWIW I've noticed a progression in performance from edgy and lacking sensitivity early on to still edgy, but much more sensitive the closer you get to blow out. Sizing-wise, I've found that they stretch a lot when sized down and am wearing a full size smaller than I do with the Muira VS. (and am considering going down another half size in my next pair) It's excruciating the first couple times I use them, but once they stretch they perform really well.

Keep in mind, the mid sole in the Katana Lace and TC are the same. Much stiffer than Miuras, less good when beyond vertical.

Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson did the Dawn Wall in TC Pros.

Ondra did it in Katana Lace sized as small as possible...

5.14c vertical edging.

Pretty sure between those two, if they fit you and downsized appropriately you will not find better micro edging shoes.

Jackson. wrote:Where do y'all think the muira lace fits in this sportiva quiver?

Toward the bottom, but they have their own advantages in other areas. The lack of P3 makes them lose the downturn and flatten out (and get softer), making them more comfortable and sensitive but less suited for really high performance edging.

King Tut wrote:Dawn Wall...5.14c vertical edging. Pretty sure between those two, if they fit you and downsized appropriately you will not find better micro edging shoes.

Not that I've been on the Dawn Wall, but the crux pitches are traverses.

Why is that relevant? Well, a major advantage of downturned shoes on vertical-to-slabby terrain is high-stepping (higher than you can raise the heel to the level of the foothold), where the downturn can actually make a better (flatter) initial contact with the foothold than flat-lasted shoes.

But this doesn't happen on traverses for the most part. So it's no surprise that those pitches aren't being climbed with downturned shoes.

IME, stiff flat-lasted shoes have a pretty short life for optimal edging: they take quite long to break in but drastically looses their performance once the last softens. Whereas the aggressively downturned shoes, as long as they don't stretch too much, can last a couple resoles (at the expense of foot fatigue). Either way, hard edging is costly on climbing shoes.

it's interesting that people say the katanas and TC pro are built on the same last or midsole or whatever, etc. they are so different that this would be a moot point. for example, i can't wear a reasonably sized pair of TC pros at all due to pronounced processes on the outsides of my feet, but i can wear katanas.

this was a definite bummer with the TC pros. i couldn't even wear a fairly loose all day pair, which would be nice as i am getting arthritis in my big toe joints.

i should also point out that reboot's take on the shoes is good advice. i remember him saying something similar a long time ago, about the different types of edging, and that info was very very useful.

reboot wrote: Not that I've been on the Dawn Wall, but the crux pitches are traverses. Why is that relevant? Well, a major advantage of downturned shoes on vertical-to-slabby terrain is high-stepping (higher than you can raise the heel to the level of the foothold), where the downturn can actually make a better (flatter) initial contact with the foothold than flat-lasted shoes. But this doesn't happen on traverses for the most part. So it's no surprise that those pitches aren't being climbed with downturned shoes. IME, stiff flat-lasted shoes have a pretty short life for optimal edging: they take quite long to break in but drastically looses their performance once the last softens. Whereas the aggressively downturned shoes, as long as they don't stretch too much, can last a couple resoles (at the expense of foot fatigue). Either way, hard edging is costly on climbing shoes.

w/e floats your boat man, I don't climb anything close to that (or ever did) either but I seem to recall Blue Suede Shoes and Kauk Slab in EBs/Fires as well as the FA of a few 5.11 slabs here and there in Yosemite Valley.

Honestly, I think it is area specific and personal style too and am quite sure the likes of Tommy/Kevin/Ondra had the perfect shoes for their application that includes (as I understand it) micro edging to send 5.13/14 liebacks on the Dawn too as well as many 5.12 pitches with some 3000' feet of climbing up too...But you are welcome to give them your advice :).

I am also quite certain you feel you know what works for you, I can only claim the same and by extrapolation assume the world's best on the world's hardest used what works for themselves too. I don't recall hearing they used any down-turned shoes on any of the pitches. But what do I know, I wasn't there.

Not trying to start a fight, just saying for you and your rock you are stoked....dunno for sure if that is what the OP is looking for (or my advice either for that matter).

All climbing shoes have a finite life for edging performance, in my experience. I feel a real board is essential for the tiniest of nubs, for my climbing, but I remember well the amazing and sensitive edging I got with Moccasyms...for about 3 pitches until they stretched. :D