Top Rope Anchor

I've been gym climbing for about 6 months and want to transition to outdoors this spring. I would really appreciate any feedback on this top rope anchor system...

-10mm static rope tied at each end with figure 8 follow through to base of 2 12" or more diameter trees.

-Master point will be two figure 8 on bight knots with equal and opposed locking carabiners through both figure 8s.

Thanks in advance for anyone willing to offer advice, no matter how critical.

Sounds fine on paper. There are potential issues if the trees aren't in good shape, or if the master point isn't positioned appropriately above the climb, etc. If it's your first time outdoors and especially if you're taking other beginners out there with you, it would be wise to find an experienced climber who can give you input while you're out there. But you already know that!

Why would your masterpoint be two figure eights, when you just need one?

Edit: As stated previously, it would be best to have an experienced outdoor climber with you your first few times. Have fun.

I'm currently reading A Falcon Guide book titled Climbing Anchors, and although I have not yet finished it I strongly recommend it. It covers needed info such as setting up natural anchors, toprope anchors, knots to use, etc. and much more. There is much to consider when building anchors and knowledge is your safest friend here!

Edit: from what I am still learning I believe two double fishermans will safely combine your rope around the tree base. Although I am sure there is more than one right way, that's what I have done. Also, using a cordelette is sufficient for your anchor. You can also easily double up if it's proper length for your figure 8 on bights master point.

It's difficult to see, but I'm pointing to the fishermans

Patrickrose10 wrote:I've been gym climbing for about 6 months and want to transition to outdoors this spring. I would really appreciate any feedback on this top rope anchor system... -10mm static rope tied at each end with figure 8 follow through to base of 2 12" or more diameter trees. -Master point will be two figure 8 on bight knots with equal and opposed locking carabiners through both figure 8s. Thanks in advance for anyone willing to offer advice, no matter how critical.

Sounds like you're on the right track! I'd recommend learning the BHK knot for your master point. While your system will work, expect the real world to throw you lots of curve balls. Being familiar with other anchor methods, knots, etc is a good start. And then there comes the problem of adjusting your master point to the right height (very important) without getting too close to the edge (what type of tether do you need/do you need a tether?)

Best recommendation: hire a guide to take you out and teach you. Books are good, but there is nothing like instruction from someone who does this stuff every day.

Disclaimer: I am a single pitch instructor and I make a part of a living teaching this stuff. #denver

FrankPS wrote:Why would your masterpoint be two figure eights, when you just need one? Edit: As stated previously, it would be best to have an experienced outdoor climber with you your first few times. Have fun.

The way hes thinking of doing it would call for 2 eights, and is totally acceptable if the climbs were far back from the edge and needed to be extended in a neat and tidy manner. But, I do it a tad different when using OP's setup.

I usually do figure eight follow through on one tree, run the line over edge, tie an eight. then about a foot of slack, tie another eight. Put carabiner through both and drop the TR. Then sling the other tree, get a locker and pull the second strand back to it and clove it, tie a hard knot, clip it and you got yourself a TR anchor. You can tie a prusik onto the first line so you can work right at edge with little risk.

I only use it when I need to extend far due to there being no natural anchors, and gear can't be placed. Otherwise, a cordalette usually does the trick.

imagine handles are the trees (the one "tree" with the carabiner would be girth hitched with a sling and then clipped, just didnt have a sling on me.), the orange carabiner would have 2 biners and the TR, the chair is the ledge you're trying to clear. **Also, ideally the knots wouldn't be on the lip of the ledge, I threw this together in like 30 seconds and din't make everything perfect, but you get the concept.

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Thanks for the all the input. The local gym has an gym to crag class I'm looking at doing, just wanted to make sure I was on the right track :)

Ice4Life (and OP) - you're tri-loading that biner (only ONE?? No redundancy.) when a BHK should be used to prevent doing so.

Ice4life wrote: The way hes thinking of doing it would call for 2 eights, and is totally acceptable if the climbs were far back from the edge and needed to be extended in a neat and tidy manner. But, I do it a tad different when using OP's setup. I usually do figure eight follow through on one tree, run the line over edge, tie an eight. then about a foot of slack, tie another eight. Put carabiner through both and drop the TR. Then sling the other tree, get a locker and pull the second strand back to it and clove it, tie a hard knot, clip it and you got yourself a TR anchor. You can tie a prusik onto the first line so you can work right at edge with little risk. I only use it when I need to extend far due to there being no natural anchors, and gear can't be placed. Otherwise, a cordalette usually does the trick. imagine handles are the trees (the one "tree" with the carabiner would be girth hitched with a sling and then clipped, just didnt have a sling on me.), the orange carabiner would have 2 biners and the TR, the chair is the ledge you're trying to clear. **Also, ideally the knots wouldn't be on the lip of the ledge, I threw this together in like 30 seconds and din't make everything perfect, but you get the concept.

This method can place triaxial loading on the masterpoint carabiners in situations where the two legs of the anchor create a significant angle. This issue is clearly illustrated in the picture. A BHK is a better choice in this application, eliminating the triaxial loading while still offering a redundant masterpoint. And in anticipation of the pushback, no, I don't think it likely that loads sufficient to break triaxially loaded masterpoint carabiners will be created in a TR scenario, but the BHK is a stronger, faster, and more elegant solution, and the one pictured offers no advantages over it.

Gunkiemike wrote:Ice4Life (and OP) - you're tri-loading that biner (only ONE?? No redundancy.) when a BHK should be used to prevent doing so.

its a popular method around here but usually with a locker on each loop so no weird forces(not that there could be on TR) on one biner. I do it with webbing, I'd probably go with a BHK if I owned static.

No need for two master points. Keep it simple.

This makes it easy for you to remember when you are cold, tired, hungry, scared, etc. It is also easy for you and your partners to inspect. It is easy to tear down, setup, and has less steps to complete.

You can extend or shorten this to any length your rope will allow for. Three knots and two carabiners is all you really need, as gear goes. Make sure the anchor points (trees, other, etc.) are up to snuff too.

As others have stated, it is always optimal to have someone in the know show you the why you are doing what you are doing.

Also, remember, your top rope anchor and what you have anchored to is most likely going to be out of sight and out of mind while you are climbing - not being tended to. Make sure everything is sound and solid (plenty of tails, lines are padded over the edge if need be, carabiners are locked and not being pinched, knots are straight and tight, etc.) Double and triple check everything!

Good luck. Be safe. Have fun!

Ice4life wrote: The way hes thinking of doing it would call for 2 eights, and is totally acceptable if the climbs were far back from the edge and needed to be extended in a neat and tidy manner. But, I do it a tad different when using OP's setup. I usually do figure eight follow through on one tree, run the line over edge, tie an eight. then about a foot of slack, tie another eight. Put carabiner through both and drop the TR. Then sling the other tree, get a locker and pull the second strand back to it and clove it, tie a hard knot, clip it and you got yourself a TR anchor. You can tie a prusik onto the first line so you can work right at edge with little risk. I only use it when I need to extend far due to there being no natural anchors, and gear can't be placed. Otherwise, a cordalette usually does the trick. imagine handles are the trees (the one "tree" with the carabiner would be girth hitched with a sling and then clipped, just didnt have a sling on me.), the orange carabiner would have 2 biners and the TR, the chair is the ledge you're trying to clear. **Also, ideally the knots wouldn't be on the lip of the ledge, I threw this together in like 30 seconds and din't make everything perfect, but you get the concept.

Tri-loaded at the nose. Not good. Flip the biner so all forces are consolidated close to the major axis. Or tie the 8's together into a masterpoint.

Paul Hutton wrote: Tri-loaded at the nose. Not good. Flip the biner so all forces are consolidated class to the major axis. Or tie the 8's together into a masterpoint.

X2

the setup in your image is very very dangerous. i suggest to edit the post and remove the image so someone doesn't assume this is safe.

curt86iroc wrote: X2 the setup in your image is very very dangerous. i suggest to edit the post and remove the image so someone doesn't assume this is safe.

quite the overstatement there , I'd bet one could hang a bus full of kids on it and it would hold

With multiple tree anchors I find it faster/easier to use a bowline knot around the first tree, set up my master point over the edge with a BHK or two figure eights, drop my rope down so the anchor is weighted, then come back and use a tensionless hitch on the second tree with the remainder of the static rope to achieve equalization.

Roper,

Are you willing to picnic under that hanging bus for a few hours with all those kids throwing pencils and stuff at you? :)

You are probably quite right about that setup holding for top rope, but why not take the "possibilities" out of the equation as much as possible?

The loading and unloading on the system gets the carabiner flopping into a funky position... could be bad news in an unexpected way, and at an unexpected time.

Who knows, it may never happen, until it possibly happens.

BigFeet wrote:Roper, Are you willing to picnic under that hanging bus for a few hours with all those kids throwing pencils and stuff at you? :) You are probably quite right about that setup holding for top rope, but why not take the "possibilities" out of the equation as much as possible? The loading and unloading on the system gets the carabiner flopping into a funky position with the gate being unlocked, and tension is then applied on the gate. Could be bad news in an unexpected way, and at an unexpected time. Who knows, it may never happen, until it possibly happens.

tons of shit can happen but when you are talking about TR weight being applied sometimes you just need to let go of all of those fears and go for it. If we all tried for perfection on every climb, placement or TR we would probably still be inside the house wondering if climbing was something we should do. just my lame ass opinion, I'd whip on it.

Highlander wrote:With multiple tree anchors I find it faster/easier to use a bowline knot around the first tree, set up my master point over the edge with a BHK or two figure eights, drop my rope down so the anchor is weighted, then come back and use a tensionless hitch on the second tree with the remainder of the static rope to achieve equalization.

Why do people think it's necessary to equalize multiple trees? Let's think about this for a second.

We equalize gear because we think that there's a possibility that one of the placements might fail and we want a backup or two. In the case of placing rock gear, screws, or clipping bolts, this is good practice. In a properly rigged anchor, if one piece blows there aren't any consequences: the other pieces hold the load and the blown piece dangles harmlessly.

But trees are different.

Think about what happens if a tree anchor fails.

If you rip a tree out, you will have the entire tree, plus whatever rocks, dirt, and other small trees are entrained in its roots, falling down on top of the climber, belayer, and whoever is at the base.

You should not be anchoring off of trees that have any chance of pulling out. Choose extremely bomber trees. This is actually fairly easy, because live trees above 15cm diameter, rooted in good soil, are super super strong. Strong enough that your pelvis will explode before the tree will show any sign of stress.

So save the headache and if the climb is right below your tree, just use the one.

Are there situations where you need to equalize two trees for other reasons? Yes. If the climb you want to TR is between two trees, then you'll have to rig an equalized system. But do it for the purpose of running the rope the way you want to, not because you're scared of a tree failing. If the tree fails, you're screwed.

T Roper wrote: tons of shit can happen but when you are talking about TR weight being applied sometimes you just need to let go of all of those fears and go for it. If we all tried for perfection on every climb, placement or TR we would probably still be inside the house wondering if climbing was something we should do. just my lame ass opinion, I'd whip on it.

I hear you, Chief!

For those who are new, or asking questions, I try to be prudent. They can figure out what risk tolerance they can handle after basics.

Overcoming the cumbersome aspects comes with the time spent dealing with it all, in my opinion. Teach them right, as best you can, and then it is up to them to build on that knowledge or not.

The visual you gave me about the bus full of children... too funny.

T Roper wrote: tons of shit can happen but when you are talking about TR weight being applied sometimes you just need to let go of all of those fears and go for it. If we all tried for perfection on every climb, placement or TR we would probably still be inside the house wondering if climbing was something we should do. just my lame ass opinion, I'd whip on it.

Everything will devolve close to the margin for error. Let's constantly strive for the very best in a world that can take us a few thousand feet off the ground. There are kids watching us. Pro alpinists still forget to finish their tie-in 8s and rappel off their ropes. Carabiner manufacturers SPECIFY triloading and crossloading to be a fatal error.

Flipping the biner or tying one more knot can change everything. You'd better do it if we cross paths.

T Roper wrote: quite the overstatement there , I'd bet one could hang a bus full of kids on it and it would hold

yea? you'd be wrong.

for people who are new to climbing, im a strong proponent of teaching the correct method for anchor building. Yes, we all do things once in a while that are questionable, but let's start with the proper basics...don't tri load a biner...