Saving cams on trad climb

Simple answer: you are doing the right thing, but when you feel safe, keep efficiency in mind. Don't just always climb scared plugging a bunch of gear in and back cleaning over and over. Learn to recognize when you are climbing in a safe situation and just decide calmly which piece to put where and move on. Also, learn to recognize when you really need to just get some gear now and put the piece in that is immediately necessary, and then figure out the best pro option once you are somewhat safer.

The skill of putting an oh shit cam in, and then replacing it with another piece that you don't need higher on the climb, is in my opinion pretty damn valuable and I use it regularly on multipitch climbs.

Brian Banta wrote:I am curious.... When we make blanket statements like "Novices shouldn't back clean, or run it out" are those statements really useful to helping novices to learn and ultimately be safe climbers?

I happen to believe both are really valid advice. They might be more useful if they come with an explanation for why.

"novices shouldn't back clean" -- this is valid, because back-cleaning implies that you know that a new piece is bomber, therefor you can safely remove an earlier piece. Almost by definition, a novice will not have good judgement as to the quality of the placement. So, a novice is far better leaving the pieces in, so that if either piece turns out to be good, their fall will be caught.

"novices shouldn't run it out" -- this is valid, again, because the decision as to whether running-it-out is a good/safe choice requires good & experienced judgement -- how good is the last piece, how solid will the be on the climbing in the run-out section, etc. In fact, novices should not be on a climb that will require such a decision -- they should be climbing on well-protected climbs that don't require those decisions.

David Gibbs wrote: I happen to believe both are really valid advice. They might be more useful if they come with an explanation for why. "novices shouldn't back clean" -- this is valid, because back-cleaning implies that you know that a new piece is bomber, therefor you can safely remove an earlier piece. Almost by definition, a novice will not have good judgement as to the quality of the placement. So, a novice is far better leaving the pieces in, so that if either piece turns out to be good, their fall will be caught. "novices shouldn't run it out" -- this is valid, again, because the decision as to whether running-it-out is a good/safe choice requires good & experienced judgement -- how good is the last piece, how solid will the be on the climbing in the run-out section, etc. In fact, novices should not be on a climb that will require such a decision -- they should be climbing on well-protected climbs that don't require those decisions.

Well novices also have to learn about mitigating rope drag, and both backcleaning and running it out are very useful tools to mitigate drag. New trad climbers should develop good judgement before trying to lead in the first place. If they don't have good judgement then they should still be placing gear on a toprope.

Gunkiemike wrote: I'm thinking maybe you missed the point that we're talking about NOVICE leaders? They shouldn't be: backcleaning, skipping placements, placing blindly, "making do" with the wrong piece, getting cute or fancy e.g stacking nuts, "gunning for the anchor" or otherwise running it out. All my opinion of course, but it's my job (literally) to keep people safe.

Just to be clear, I said back cleaning is an appropriate skill for any climber. Nothing in my statement had anything to do with "skipping placements, placing blindly, "making do" with the wrong piece, getting cute or fancy e.g stacking nuts, "gunning for the anchor" or otherwise running it out".

How you teach is, of course, your prerogative. However, we disagree on this point, I happen to think that an individual should be given tools to recover from mistakes made in gear placement. Back cleaning is a viable option, to say that a new leader shouldn't learn how to do it safely and take advantage of it in a given situation is, in my opinion, silly.

To chime in months late, I'm with drewdogg2112 on this.  I've done this climbing with a limited rack of cams also having a good supply of hexes on a crack that wanted similar sized placements for an extended period.  When feeling the need to place gear quick I would place a cam into a good spot, but if I felt I would really like to have the liberty of placing that again quickly further up on the line I'd find a good hex placement and place that, then remove the cam so I could use it again for a quick placement as needed.  That way I avoid being put in the situation further up the line of choosing between fiddling with a more difficult placement or running out the line more than I would like to. 

Obviously it is more ideal to be able to place the hex immediately, but realistically hex placements can be hard to make while starting to run out of holding power.  I know a lot of people view hexes as being outdated and clunky but for a budget climber they allow for less runout climbs on a much more approachable price than doubling or tripling up on cams (not to mention that they are lighter and there are situations where they are fundamentally better performing) 

Beginners if you can lift a crappy piece out and bump it a little higher, totally fine.

But in general, you want to be placing that which is bomber before committing to the unknown.

What I would add to this thread @OP is that the next level you want to take it to is reading the route and recognizing when you are gonna "hose" yourself by placing a nut or cam in the key jam/hold and instead instinctively place either a cam or nut in the alternate spot, saving the holds for your use. This is something cams have revolutionized, leaving that sinker jam unfilled by a hex and leaving it for your hand, placing a cam in the parallel spot instead leaving you options for climbing. You can do this on easy routes too, and is good training for more desperate situations.

This may seen like an esoteric point now, but it is going to be essential for you to reach higher levels. Its an art that requires reading the climbing and the protection possibilities at the same time.

Here's my story. Back in the early 80s I had just started climbing. Trad was the only game in town. In addition to nuts and hexes I had 3 rigid stem cams. I was on a 5.7 climb and was getting into ground that seemed a little beyond 5.7. I ended up placing a cam that looked horrible. I made a move up and placed a bomber #4 stopper. The cam and stopper were about 3 feet apart. I left them both in place. By the time I was about 15 feet out from the #4 stopper I knew I was off route and in trouble. I made a move in attempt to get to a nice looking crack but came off. By the time the rope caught me I had clocked about 45 feet of air time. The #4 stopper was sheered out of the crack and the cam that looked horrible caught me. The next piece below the cam was probably 6 to 8 feet below the cam. After my belayer caught me, he lowered me about 5 feet to get to the ledge he was belaying from. Bottom line, if I had back cleaned the cam I would have been scraped off the ledge.

@Mark - Is the lesson from your story not to back clean until you can assess your placements better? or that you recommend to almost never back clean?

I'm in the same boat as OP and just trying to learn.

Abdullah Mourad wrote:

@Mark - Is the lesson from your story not to back clean until you can assess your placements better? or that you recommend to almost never back clean?

I'm in the same boat as OP and just trying to learn.

I think the real lesson is "never have only one piece between you and disaster"

wivanoff wrote:

I think the real lesson is "never have only one piece between you and disaster"

Yes, that is an important lesson. In other words as I've seen it elsewhere...  Keep two good pieces between you and the ground. Some examples would be at a crux area of the climb, a runout above a ledge in the climb, a crux right after the first piece in the climb. 

wivanoff wrote:

I think the real lesson is "never have only one piece between you and disaster"

Right; as applied to back cleaning, this means you should take gear from several pieces back. Leave at least your last 2-3 pieces, not just your last piece.

Abdullah Mourad wrote:

@Mark - Is the lesson from your story not to back clean until you can assess your placements better? or that you recommend to almost never back clean?

If I were back cleaning based on how good my last piece was, I would have taken the cam with me. The #4 stopper I placed was about as good as they get but it was still just a #4 stopper. It probably could have held a 20 foot fall but eventually the forces on the stopper get great enough that the aluminum just can't hold up. In my case, the aluminum was sheared off the stopper as it was pulled through the constriction in the crack. I can't say I've never back cleaned but in general if I place a piece I feel good enough to move above then it's staying.