The deadly ATC

One of George Foreman's kids was taking a climbing instructor's course. When the instructor asked "Johnny" what does belaying mean? Johnny said, if i don't catch you, you will be...laying on the ground.

Anotherclimber, Don't climb routes that FF2 is possible. It says it in the guide book most of the time. With the letter's "VS". That's another way to advoid factor two falls.

See, that's the thing. I feel like people in this thread have the same attitude to FF2s as soloists do. "It's just a 5.6, no big deal!" Yes, you can pick well protected routes that are well below your max, but shit hits the fan. What if you slip? Hold breaks off because you decided to climb in Red Rock after it rained? Most people don't intentionally put themselves in situations where a FF2 is likely, but it is always possible in multi pitch climbing, and even if you do clip the anchor as your first piece, falling onto the belay is serious business.

Most people don't intend to get into car wrecks, but that doesn't mean you should drive without airbags.

FF2 falls are way different than driveing. They are only possible at certain times and you are explicitlay aware of those times. So you do Not fall in those situation and you do not yard on holds in those situations. The only time it gets real is when you are first ascenting or lost or doing wild things in the mountains. You will almost never be in a real FF2 situation cragging on populer multi pitch. Unless you count slab climbing. That is a whole nother beast Where every belay is 20 or more feet from the next bolt. Jim has not chimed in on if he has tested slab falls to see if they generate real FF2 forces?

anotherclimber wrote: Wow! That is some sobering information. I'm going to have to give this some thought. Perhaps you'd like to give some parting thoughts regarding choice of belay device you would use and/or repeat your recommendations? On top of that, I seem to recall rgold mentioning earlier in this thread that avoiding factor two falls in trad climbing is not always possible. Is that truly the case? And under what scenarios would this happen where either climbing past the belay and placing a first piece for the next pitch and clipping into it then climbing down to make the anchor, or lowering the belayer ten feet below the belay would not avoid this issue? Thanks again for your time.

I personally use a Grigri mk1 for sport climbing and an ATC XP for trad climbing or if I will need to abseil. Easier multi-pitch involving bolted belays I sometimes use an Italian (Munter) hitch.
Belayers should use whatever they are most comfortable with and be aware of the potential disadvantages and limitations of the device they choose.

It´s impossible to avoid all dangers in rock climbing, mis-judging the strength of the piece you trust to remove the possibility of a FF2 is an obvious one. Not falling is obviously the best protection against large falls which could cause your belayer to lose control, large FF2´s are not the fundamental problem and are extremely rare, I doubt the average climber will ever experience one in their career.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Jim has not chimed in on if he has tested slab falls to see if they generate real FF2 forces?

I don´t test falls of that kind, neither for theoretical purposes nor personally by falling off, I doubt I´d find a willing volounteer to throw themselves 20m down a slab anyway.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:FF2 falls...are only possible at certain times and you are explicitly aware of those times. So you do Not fall in those situations and you do not yard on holds in those situations. The only time it gets real is when you are first ascending or lost or doing wild things in the mountains. You will almost never be in a real FF2 situation cragging on popular multi pitch.

One can lay down all the behavioral rules one wants, but the unexpected can happen anyway. The only FF2 and high FF falls I have held were on popular cragging multipitch trad climbs.

Yes I get that. I just did a 1,000ft solo yesterday and the upper 3rd was onsight witha real move 50ft from the top so I may have been tainted in my thinking a bit. Still we should know to watch our stuff extra well untill we get something solid in.

Jim Titt wrote: I don´t test falls of that kind, neither for theoretical purposes nor personally by falling off, I doubt I´d find a willing volounteer to throw themselves 20m down a slab anyway.

When I was younger I would...and did

I was going to mention that you liked that sort of thing ;)

Jim Titt wrote: I don´t test falls of that kind, neither for theoretical purposes nor personally by falling off, I doubt I´d find a willing volounteer to throw themselves 20m down a slab anyway.

I dunno about a 20m slab but I decked from 20 feet once one a slab. It was about 80ish degrees so kind of a steep slab and it felt like I was 50% falling and 50% sliding. I can't imagine a 20m fall on a such as slab would be very violent, even if it was a factor 2

So, on the topic of testing: Jim, have you ever done any simulated tests for lead fall forces? I know that a lot of people worry about the force ratings for gear (erroneously, as the real concern should usually be pulling), so I'm curious about how much force is typically subjected to a piece with a solid belay. My suspicion is "not a lot," but it would be interesting to know rough guidelines. Say you take a 20 footer onto a 00 C3...should you be worried about strength ratings then? How about a 40 footer?

eli poss wrote: I dunno about a 20m slab but I decked from 20 feet once one a slab. It was about 80ish degrees so kind of a steep slab and it felt like I was 50% falling and 50% sliding. I can't imagine a 20m fall on a such as slab would be very violent, even if it was a factor 2

It's not a factor 2 if you don't free fall twice the distance of rope out. If you are 50% sliding it is no where near a factor 2.

Ted Pinson wrote:So, on the topic of testing: Jim, have you ever done any simulated tests for lead fall forces? I know that a lot of people worry about the force ratings for gear (erroneously, as the real concern should usually be pulling), so I'm curious about how much force is typically subjected to a piece with a solid belay. My suspicion is "not a lot," but it would be interesting to know rough guidelines. Say you take a 20 footer onto a 00 C3...should you be worried about strength ratings then? How about a 40 footer?

Without a fall factor, 20 footer and 40 footer falls are meaningless to determine force on top piece of gear.

Forgive me if someone already said this but the grigri 3 will have a lead and top rope function (so I hear). The lead part will allow the rope to slid easier and not get caught up flaking out. It also has a panic function on the descent handle.

Mark lewin wrote:Forgive me if someone already said this but the grigri 3 will have a lead and top rope function (so I hear). The lead part will allow the rope to slid easier and not get caught up flaking out. It also has a panic function on the descent handle.

The lead function will make it exactly the same as a normal grigri the top rope grigri loosens the spring that keeps the cam from engaging making basically just a super grabby grigri.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Most drops are lowering accidents.

Probably correct, but failure to stop a fall is still a fairly common 'dropped' post.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Not sure where joe gets his idea that lead climbers are being dropped willi nilly all over the place.

I didn't specify lead climbers - I said the demographic has a high level of drops on a percentage basis compared to bitd. There are no stats, but it's pretty simple: just post up in the affirmative here if you've never dropped or been dropped; don't know anyone who's dropped or been dropped; and never seen anyone dropped. Gym, sport, trad, top rope or lead - it doesn't matter, a drop is a drop. I'd start, but I've seen several people dropped even though I haven't dropped or been dropped and don't know anyone who has done either.

That's sure a lot of drops..and dropping

that guy named seb wrote: The lead function will make it exactly the same as a normal grigri the top rope grigri loosens the spring that keeps the cam from engaging making basically just a super grabby grigri.

Good to know thanks! I was gonna replace my G1 with a 2 but I'll just wait for the new one

Mark lewin wrote: Good to know thanks! I was gonna replace my G1 with a 2 but I'll just wait for the new one

The new grigri+ isn't really for recreational use it's more for center and climbing gyms to stock, for personal recreation petzl still say use the standard grigri 2.