The deadly ATC

King Tut wrote:however, I believe somewhere up thread there was a presentation of evidence that ATC drops are a majority of those presented in "Accidents in North America

I suspect that was the German study we were discussing a couple of pages back - 60% of belayers were using ATCs and had 70% of the accidents. As I keep saying, the issue is incompetence, not devices. All that study shows is that incompetence 'bleeds through' ATCs slightly faster than it does through grigris; but make no mistake, it bleeds through both devices at what I consider extremely high rates compared to bitd. It isn't the devices, it's the high level of belayer incompetence in the demographic that's the cause and grigris are just better at masking it.

King Tut wrote:I myself have been dropped at least 3 times.

Enough said, in forty three years I've never dropped, been dropped, or personally known any age peer who's been involved in a drop. That you've personally been dropped three times just indicates the level of incompetence in the vastly expanded demographic.

King Tut wrote:...but those were with hip belays and tube devices respectively.

Incompetence is incompetence, neither of those devices/techniques compensate for it.

King Tut wrote:In competent hands what this thread clearly demonstrates is a gri-gri does not fail to stop the climber...

Competent hands do not fail to stop a climber, period.

King Tut wrote:If they aren't gloved, then the best belayer in the world potentially would fail to stop a FF2 fall, but a gri-gri most definitely will.

I know rgold likes to preach his glove theory, but I've stopped FF2 falls ungloved with both hip belays and simple plates with no significant rope slippage and no burns - it's again a matter of competence.

Look, I get the personal rationale for grigri use as a hedge and insurance against endemic belaying incompetence within the demographic, I really do. But again, the grigri unfortunately breeds the very incompetence you're hedging against and basically insures that year after year the overall demographic will continue to behave like a random dropping generator.

Healyje wrote: I consider it a rather mundane and common sense claim .

“Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it.”

― René Descartes, Discourse on Method

It is as if you are the pope in 1633 defending a geocentric world. By all logical accounts, instead of your silly common sense, you are an idiot promoting dangerous information.

Here you go, this is what logic looks like, which, ironically, brought you both the ATC and Gri.

Good belayer with ATC = safe
Good belayer with Gri = more safe because of auto lock, you can kill your belayer with a rock and live!!!

Bad belayer with ATC = Fucking deadly, you will die
Bad belayer with Gri = not certain death, but not a good idea, your probably going to live

Do you see which one is only deadly with no chance of redemption?

Your logic is flawed, and your false equivalencies are clearly an example of what Rene Descartes called common sense.

Oh, for my common sense observation:

I saw an old man just like you, full of the member berries of the past, drop his old ass partner 40 feet to the dirt last week. I ran over and exclaimed, oh, but you are using the deadly ATC!! Certainly I must be right, as I am about as common as they come.

The conscious one was super offended, and the unconscious one was unconscious ready to be shipped to the ER.

Instead of promoting flawed common sense that feels so righteous, why not promote good belay skills with a superior device?

I know why, lol, comon sense tells me you suck at feeding rope with the superior device.

Jack Quarless wrote:I saw an old man just like you...

I get it that you're of the "just don't clip them" school of safe climbing, but forgive me, while you saw an old man, and god only knows there are a lot of them out there just like him, you didn't see one just like me. Hell, I turn sixty-five this year, but if you're in the area please do come by, look me up and we can hit the the routes I'll be leading this year and see how you like those berries. There's plenty old in my story, but it's also all still quite current. My latest project has repeatedly turned back a 5.14 partner at the lip of the third roof - I haven't gotten it either - we're both stuck at the same spot out at the lip - but just getting to that hard crux is an R/X and highly technical endeavor. Again, old but it's forty-three years of fairly serious experience and a ton of ground-up trad FAs backing up what I say.

Sigh. I get that a bunch of you don't like hearing anything negative about grigris. But the bottom line is they unavoidably breed, perpetuate and mask the very incompetence you're using them to compensate for. I tend to think of it this way:

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Dustin. catching one big fall VS catching hundreds of falls, many of them hard falls with verry little rope out? not buying it. Espically since almost none of the climbers I know have caught or experienced a FF2 fall. Seems like your options are pretty limited. You either practice catching FF2 falls in a controled setting or you strive to Never take or let your partner take a FF2 fall. talking about what you might do if it happens won't make any difference when it does. When really bad things happen verry suddenly your reactions are instinct not thought based. reading does zero good without practice. I will say that those of us with years of belaying the 2nd directly off our harness without a redirect have the experience of catching a struggleing 2nd with a downward pull. Those from the era of always redirect and then the era of belay directly off the anchors with a guide mode device do not have that experience to fall back on.

I know most of you will disagree with me. Maybe not? But if a climber learn's how to belay properly from day one, He/she already has the, Muscle memory, instinct, and knowledge to put themselves in the best position to catch a FF2. You can't tell me a basic belay device, such as a BD ATC with a belay biner
can't catch a FF2 fall, as long as all the force is not applied directly on the belayer's waist.

Chris CW wrote:You can't tell me a basic belay device, such as a BD ATC with a belay biner can't catch a FF2 fall, as long as all the force is not applied directly on the belayer's waist.

I can assure you a belayer competent with the technique can stop an FF2 fall 'directly on the waist' with a hip belay let alone with a plate or ATC.

Gotta dash...

Good to know. Thanks. Not that i want to experience or try it.

Healyje wrote: I can assure you a belayer competent with the technique can stop an FF2 fall 'directly on the waist' with a hip belay let alone with a plate or ATC. Gotta dash...

It depends on how long the fall is. If they are right out of the belay and they fall, sure that's plausible, but falling 20' out of the belay on overhanging rock directly onto an ATC? Very unlikely unless they are wearing gloves. The amount of slippage the device would produce would cause serious burns on the belayer's hands, almost certainly causing them to let go of the rope. The braking force of the ATC has been tested on several occasions and it clocks in around 2-3kN. That's less than a third of what a lengthy FF2 would produce.

20 kN wrote: It depends on how long the fall is. If they are right out of the belay and they fall, sure that's plausible, but falling 20' out of the belay on overhanging rock directly onto an ATC?

Been there, done that with a simple plate.

20 kN wrote:No chance in hell is anyone catching that on an ATC unless they are wearing gloves.

No gloves.

20 kN wrote:The amount of slippage the device would produce would cause serious burns on the belayer's hands, almost certainly causing them to let go of the rope.

No significant slippage; held onto the rope; no burns;

20 kN wrote:The braking force of the ATC has been tested on several occasions and even the strongest climbers around who are specifically expecting a fall can only hold 3-4kN on an ATC. That's about a third of what a lengthy FF2 would produce. It's physically impossible for any human to catch a fall producing upwards of 9kN directly on an ATC without significant rope slippage.

I agree, but simply by braking back over and around your hip you can in fact hold such a fall and I've done it. But I brake back and around my hip in a fall instinctively from years of hip belaying. It's like the difference between trying to restrain a bucking horse directly or by bending the rope around a tree or post. One works, the other is never going to.

Now I really have to dash - see ya...

Chris CW wrote: I know most of you will disagree with me. Maybe not? But if a climber learn's how to belay properly from day one, He/she already has the, Muscle memory, instinct, and knowledge to put themselves in the best position to catch a FF2. You can't tell me a basic belay device, such as a BD ATC with a belay biner can't catch a FF2 fall, as long as all the force is not applied directly on the belayer's waist.

Read the thread. Actual testing of such things show that an ATC slips 1.5-2m of rope in a FF2 fall. That means the belayer is getting their hands burned and likely loses control of the belay. With gloves, they can do it...by far however, in my experience people do not use gloves, but I am seeing them more and more.

Healyje wrote: Been there, done that with a simple plate. No gloves. No significant slippage; held onto the rope; no burns; I agree, but simply by braking back over and around your hip you can in fact hold such a fall and I've done it. But I brake back and around my hip in a fall instinctively from years of hip belaying. It's like the difference between trying to restrain a bucking horse directly or by bending the rope around a tree or post. One works, the other is never going to. Now I really have to dash - see ya...

Keeping both hands on the rope in brake position when you are not feeding rope out for the clip, makes alot of sense. At the sametime it's important not to yank down on the rope when the leader falls. A beginner's fitst instict. One hand near the belay device, not to close. The other hand around the waist.

Healyje wrote: Been there, done that with a simple plate. No gloves. No significant slippage; held onto the rope; no burns; I agree, but simply by braking back over and around your hip you can in fact hold such a fall and I've done it. But I brake back and around my hip in a fall instinctively from years of hip belaying. It's like the difference between trying to restrain a bucking horse directly or by bending the rope around a tree or post. One works, the other is never going to. Now I really have to dash - see ya...

Cool, make a video and show us how it's done. All the testing I've seen, including old testing done by Petzl, shows it's not likely to catch a serious FF2 directly onto an ATC without quite a bit of slippage.

I am starting to think the 11.2 Marathon Mega I was regretting buying (great price at Sierra Trading Post made me do it) may make for safer belaying!

Healyje wrote: Been there, done that with a simple plate. No gloves. No significant slippage; held onto the rope; no burns; I agree, but simply by braking back over and around your hip you can in fact hold such a fall and I've done it. But I brake back and around my hip in a fall instinctively from years of hip belaying. It's like the difference between trying to restrain a bucking horse directly or by bending the rope around a tree or post. One works, the other is never going to. Now I really have to dash - see ya...

And how thick was the rope you were using? I can almost guarantee it was skinnier than the 9mm one being tested by Jim unless you were using halves. Don't get me wrong, I believe your story, but I don't believe it is necessarily applicable to modern rope/belay plate combinations.

Healyje wrote: while you saw an old man, and god only knows there are a lot of them out there just like him, you didn't see one just like me.

Naw, it was a common old man with common old sense, just like you.

Healyje wrote: My latest project has repeatedly turned back a 5.14 partner at the lip of the third roof

Nice spray bra, last week I was projecting with my 5.15 climbing friend and he got turned back in the stemming corner of my project. I assure you that I am pretty special too.

The really scary thing about older climbers is that as you become older your reaction time slows down and your hands get shaky. This is exactly what happened to the very old and competent trad dad belayer next to me last week, the rope simply slipped through his hands and he barely grabbed hold at the end of the fall, his partner decking but not dying. Thus, a Gri is exactly the type of belay device an older, slower, competent climber who's hands shake should use, unless they are too weak to feed slack through the system, then they should retire.

Healyje wrote: the bottom line is they unavoidably breed, perpetuate and mask the very incompetence you're using them to compensate for.

The bottom line is that you are spewing ignorant statements. A competent belayer is an independent variable, and your belay device functions according to physical principals, not your common sense.

Jack Quarless wrote: ...a Gri is exactly the type of belay device an older, slower, competent climber who's hands shake should use...

I think there's some sense in this. I'm an older, slower, competent climber whose hands don't shake and whose reaction times, while inevitably slower, are at least not noticeably retarded. Still, I worry about not being able to respond the way I used to, and indeed I owe it to my partners to worry about this, regardless of the extent to which it is actually true.

I'm well aware that the brain thinks the body is the same one it was in charge of decades ago, and is always surprised when transmitted signals for action produce far less response than was anticipated. So a few years ago I decided to switch to a semi-automatic belay device (I climb mostly with half ropes, so a Grigri isn't an option), and after trying a bunch of such gadgets, settled on one I think is the best for my purposes.

I don't anticipate being lulled into any kind of incompetence by the new technology; I've got more than a half-century of the right kind of reactions built-in at this point. But just in case those reactions aren't as fast as they used to be, I'm happy to get a little cushion of assistance from technology.

I'm mindful of the downsides of the semiautomatic gadgets as well, and have tried to choose a device that will have the best high-load performance. I always use it with gloves, and strive to stay focused, attentive, and engaged with the potential issues faced by the leader, so that, in terms of preparedness, I feel that I've done my due diligence and am worthy of my partners' trust.

Belaying is a serious business and needs to be taken seriously, but most of the time it is utterly routine and nothing even remotely challenging happens. The trick is to be able to respond if and when something bad does happen, because things can go from casual to severe in the blink of an eye.

eli poss wrote:Jim, I noticed your tests were done with a 9mm rope. I personally don't own and have never used halves, twins, or singles less than 9.2mm. My go to rope atm is 9.7 and I rarely use ropes thinner than 9.4. Do you happen to have any data on 9.4mm or 9.5mm ropes? I'm particularly interested in the Alpine Up's performance as well as a munter hitch that is what I used most frequently but I'd love to see test results for a variety of devices. Y'know, if you get bored at work or something like that. Thanks P.S. For future reference, when doing this kind of testing for halves and twins I think including the alpine up would be worthwhile as that is what I've seen most recommended for doubles

I´ve never owned any mid-9mm ropes myself, I´ve had 9mm, 8.5 and 7.9 half ropes and my single ropes are 9.8 and 10mm as I use a Mk1 GriGri (don´t tell Joe but it´s the best belay device ever made for single ropes).
I´ve tested the AlpineUp and the ClickUp for Climbing Technology but that was after I did the other testing, I guess I´ve the results somewhere?
The Munter I´ve never tested because a)it´s been tested before b)I don´t really do comparison of all different devices to see how they perform, I test to identify why and how various devices perform like they do. The ATC XP usually gets included to give a benchmark for each set of tests.

Chris CW wrote: Keeping both hands on the rope in brake position when you are not feeding rope out for the clip, makes alot of sense. At the sametime it's important not to yank down on the rope when the leader falls. A beginner's fitst instict. One hand near the belay device, not to close. The other hand around the waist.

Hmmm. Not sure about that, I virtually never have both hands on the brake strand as most of the time I have the slightest constant tension on the lead strand so I can feel what a leader is doing. It would also likely inhibit the reaction time of my brake hand going around my hip.

20 kN wrote: Cool, make a video and show us how it's done. All the testing I've seen, including old testing done by Petzl, shows it's not likely to catch a serious FF2 directly onto an ATC without quite a bit of slippage.

I post up what I've experienced and I frankly couldn't care less whether you or anyone else believes or values what I write. If the concept of adding friction by taking a rope around something - in this case my hip / upper thigh - then no amount of video is going to help you grasp the concept.

eli poss wrote: And how thick was the rope you were using? I can almost guarantee it was skinnier than the 9mm one being tested by Jim unless you were using halves. Don't get me wrong, I believe your story, but I don't believe it is necessarily applicable to modern rope/belay plate combinations.

Now there is a good question. A 10.5 and I think you meant "wasn't skinnier". Most of my climbing is free lead rope soloing and I do it on an Eddy paired with a 9.9. I prefer a 9.8 for climbing with partners and believe I could manage stopping an FF2 with it with either a device or hip belaying - below 9.8, say down to a 9.2 I'd have to do a half handwrap while going behind my hip which I can also do instinctively. That will likely work, but it's going to hurt.

And that brings up several trade-offs. Yeah 'modern' skinny [and longer] ropes have some distinct advantages like being lighter, great for sport, and allowing you to run pitches together. But they also have some distinct disadvantages such as needing more precise pairing to devices, rope stretch that can put seconds at risk of low falls if you've run pitches together, less cutting resistance, and - with regard to the subject at hand (as it were) - significantly less grip strength on the rope. The latter being why proper device pairing is so important. I climb with 7.8 twin/half ropes when in places like Red Rock and, belaying or rapping, you don't want to use the wrong device with them unless you want to be scared pissless the entire time.

I personally won't climb trad with anything smaller than a 9.8 exactly because of the trade-off that you have to rely more on your device because of the reduced grip strength on the rope and that's not a trade-off I'm not willing to make exactly because I don't want to rely solely or mostly on a device of any kind in the event of a FF2 fall.

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Jack Quarless wrote: Naw, it was a common old man with common old sense, just like you.

Well, I know you really need to believe that, but you have no idea at all.

Jack Quarless wrote: last week I was projecting with my 5.15 climbing friend and he got turned back in the stemming corner of my project. I assure you that I am pretty special too.

I have no doubt you climb hard sport routes resting your way up them with aplomb. That may or may not be an option on a lot of hard trad lines and FAs depending on the rock type. You're not going to hang on most of the pro on the project I was talking about, the pro is too marginal to be used that way - you're either climbing, downclimbing to a rest or falling - mostly the latter.

Jack Quarless wrote:The really scary thing about older climbers is that as you become older your reaction time slows down and your hands get shaky.

Again, you're talking about some other old guy at least at this point.

Jack Quarless wrote:This is exactly what happened to the very old and competent trad dad belayer next to me last week, the rope simply slipped through his hands and he barely grabbed hold at the end of the fall, his partner decking but not dying.

As I said, there's no shortage of those guys out there and I'll be one soon enough, but it's still a ways off at this point. And I'm sure Donini and Lowe were positively quaking their way up the Nose during their 25 hour go at ages 70 and 69.

Jack Quarless wrote:Thus, a Gri is exactly the type of belay device an older, slower, competent climber who's hands shake should use, unless they are too weak to feed slack through the system, then they should retire.

Look, if you can't reliably belay with an ATC you shouldn't be belaying period - it may be age induced - but it's incompetence nonetheless. So your characterization of the old fellow is quite wrong, he wasn't competent and giving him a grigri to mask his incompetence simply contributes to the already frightening pool of incompetent belayers out there.

Jack Quarless wrote:The bottom line is that you are spewing ignorant statements.

Actually no. But I get that you, like so many other folks and sport climbers in particular, simply can't see the forest for the trees and don't want to hear that grigri use masks a lot of belaying incompetence in the demographic. If that widespread incompetence weren't a reality then people on this thread wouldn't have been dropped three times, wouldn't have dropped anyone, wouldn't have seen anyone dropped and wouldn't know anyone who's dropped or been dropped. How about you? Dropped someone? Been dropped? Know folks who've dropped or been dropped? But hey, again, I understand that getting real about what's really happening isn't what most folks want to hear.

Jack Quarless wrote:A competent belayer is an independent variable, and your belay device functions according to physical principals, not your common sense.

Belay devices operate on the physical principles inherent in their design. That's a given. But all those device 'features' only matter in the hands of a belayer which is when those very same design features are subject to the marvels and foibles of human interaction. And folks' belaying behavior is unavoidably shaped by those interactions and what they allow a human to do or not do. But neither operates in isolation - the human or the device. So tell me, when the predominant use-case driving the designed feature set of a belay device is holding hanging climbers for long durations - and does so well and seemingly by itself with all the appearances of high reliability - what do you suppose the typical human behavioral response and inclination is over time? I mean really, go ahead and take a wild stab at it...

Yep, move along, definitely just another shaky old guy talking out his ass here.

Healije, I never keep slight tension on the rope, unless the climber has a chance of hitting something. I always keep at least a few inches of slack in the rope if not a foot or more. Never have a problem feeling what the climber is doing when out of sight. If you don't keep slack in the rope a gri gri or cinch is hard to use the same way you would use a ATC. Using two brake hands on the strand is easy. What else does the other hand do whaen you are waiting for the climber to pull up rope to make a clip?

Peace Out. My last post.
Stay safe have FUN.

You guys are nuts to just listening to someone that is not even climbing, is a joke... He's the biggest TROLL on Heart...

Back in the early 70´s when climbing equipment manufacturers told you useful stuff:-

Or later when Petzl introduced the Reverso series and gave a useful calculator where you could input your rope, fall etc and a handy red warning came up to tell you your hands were going to be destroyed.
Not exactly something designed to promote sales of their belay plate so removed in favour of "safe, solid catch" or some such claptrap.