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The deadly ATC

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Nick Goldsmith wrote:there is no substitute for experience. either you have caught a bunch of falls or you haven't. The 5.6 trad climber who has been at for 30 years has less experience catching falls than a 2 year sport climber.
Exactly how many 2 year sport climbers have experience of 10 or 20m FF2 falls?
Chris CW · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 85

The big issue with me is how much slack or how much slack the belayer doesn't keep in the system. When falling on a traversing route it's not difficult to break a ankle if the rope is to taught. It's the difference between falling straight down and swinging and falling at a trajectory into the wall and breaking a ankle.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
climber pat wrote: In my playing with my grigri 2, it rarely auto locks with a mammut serenity 8.9 mm rope with the dry treatment. The device is brand new and not worn out. The spec for the device is 8.9-11mm and petzl indicates an ideal range of 9.4-10.3mm. I believe their speced range is too optimistic for the 'auto lock' to work. It works fine with a hand on the belay strand. As a side note my 4 year old climbing technologies alpine up often auto locks on the same rope. The alpine up's spec is for 8.6-10.5 mm ropes.
Unless Mammut changed the specifications for the Serenity over the years, it is 8.7mm diameter which puts it below the advertised specification of the Grigri 2. So if it doesn't catch reliably or at all on that rope that doesn't surprise me.

mammut.ch/US/en_US/B2C-Kate…

Even then, rope with diameters at the low extreme end of the range of a belay device are in my mind suspect with how well they catch until you can safely test it to your own satisfaction.

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As I've been relaying all this information from this thread to my climbing partners in summary form for them, it occurred to me...

Does anyone know what happens in a factor two fall when using a device that has a nose that you hook your thumb into like the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay and Edelrid Megajul? Particularly when the fall is on the brake hand side of the belayer where the belay device will then invert towards your hand potentially catching your thumb with it and/or bashing the device into your hand.

And I wonder with any belay device, if the belayer is not quick to respond with an upward pull, and the leader falls on the brake hand side of the belayer, can the leader side side of the rope catch your wrist or arm and prevent or delay an upward pull?
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

The Serenity 8.9 is an older model still available at some shops at least here in Germany.

The MegaJul and some of the other devices of this kind like the AlpineUp specifically exclude FF2 falls in their instructions. Another reason not to carry them on multi-pitch routes.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Jim. your typical moderate trad climber has close to zero experience catching leader falls. The leader must not fall. You typical ice climber is in the same boat. The leader damn well better not fall! I have a friend who has been climbing ice for over 40 years. never caught a leader fall. The only leader fall he has ever taken was a 400 footer soling Odels gully. I had been trad climbing and ice climbing for about 5 years at that point and that was perhaps the first time I saw a leader fall. That of course changed when I started hanging with stronger climbers pushing harder grades and new routing etc but I do believe that your averadge moderate trad climber really has little experience actually catching leader falls.
Sport climbing is a whole different ballgame. I have been at Rumny and watched kids huckin 25 footers all afternoon trying to get to the chains on Flesh For Lulu. I have caught some pretty darn hard falls spurt climbing. trying to keep the leader off the ground when they blow the 1st, 2nd or 3rd clips. So yes your avredge relatively new sport climber most likly has a fair bit of experience catching leader falls while your averadge moderate trad climber may have little or no experience catching leader falls. as for catching 30m FF2 falls I don't know anyone personaly who has experience in that dept and if they do that sort of thing regularly I would just as soon not climb with them.....

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Nick Goldsmith wrote:Jim. your typical moderate trad climber has close to zero experience catching leader falls. The leader must not fall. You typical ice climber is in the same boat. The leader damn well better not fall! I have a friend who has been climbing ice for over 40 years. never caught a leader fall. The only leader fall he has ever taken was a 400 footer soling Odels gully. I had been trad climbing and ice climbing for about 5 years at that point and that was perhaps the first time I saw a leader fall. That of course changed when I started hanging with stronger climbers pushing harder grades and new routing etc but I do believe that your averadge moderate trad climber really has little experience actually catching leader falls. Sport climbing is a whole different ballgame. I have been at Rumny and watched kids huckin 25 footers all afternoon trying to get to the chains on Flesh For Lulu. I have caught some pretty darn hard falls spurt climbing. trying to keep the leader off the ground when they blow the 1st, 2nd or 3rd clips. So yes your avredge relatively new sport climber most likly has a fair bit of experience catching leader falls while your averadge moderate trad climber may have little or no experience catching leader falls. as for catching 30m FF2 falls I don't know anyone personaly who has experience in that dept and if they do that sort of thing regularly I would just as soon not climb with them.....
I get that point but honestly these days I prefer to not have someone belay me that hasn't or never catches any falls. I used to all the time but these days I'd just assume not go there. I just dont feel comfortable with someone holding my life in their hands who never falls or nevr catches falls, ATC/grigri whatever.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Helen, The The 2nd pitch of the Cleaver was a huge leverage move with the right leg/heel hook to a big reach to a small crimper. Once you had the crimper it was a power move to stand up and ballance standing on the tip of the flake. From there is was about 30ft of techy 5.9 face to a 15ft slab to the top anchors. Unfourtunatly the roof with 2 of my bolts in it fell off about 24hrs after I did the 2nd free ascent With Isa. We both got it clean and it was the wildest pitch I ever did on rock. Would have been one of my favorite climbs if it had not fallen down......

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 430
Nick Goldsmith wrote:Jim. your typical moderate trad climber has close to zero experience catching leader falls. The leader must not fall. You typical ice climber is in the same boat. The leader damn well better not fall! I have a friend who has been climbing ice for over 40 years. never caught a leader fall. The only leader fall he has ever taken was a 400 footer soling Odels gully. I had been trad climbing and ice climbing for about 5 years at that point and that was perhaps the first time I saw a leader fall. That of course changed when I started hanging with stronger climbers pushing harder grades and new routing etc but I do believe that your averadge moderate trad climber really has little experience actually catching leader falls. Sport climbing is a whole different ballgame. I have been at Rumny and watched kids huckin 25 footers all afternoon trying to get to the chains on Flesh For Lulu. I have caught some pretty darn hard falls spurt climbing. trying to keep the leader off the ground when they blow the 1st, 2nd or 3rd clips. So yes your avredge relatively new sport climber most likly has a fair bit of experience catching leader falls while your averadge moderate trad climber may have little or no experience catching leader falls. as for catching 30m FF2 falls I don't know anyone personaly who has experience in that dept and if they do that sort of thing regularly I would just as soon not climb with them.....
TBH this is one of the good things about Gyms that have lead climbing. People do get experience these days taking some whippers (sometimes many) before they venture out to traditional climbing. There are no FF2 falls of course, but plenty of belayers getting lifted off the ground etc.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

T roper. that is pretty much my feelings. I feel safer with partners that I know sport climb and do FA's I know they know how to catch a fall. On the other hand if someone is crazy enough to take 30m FF2 falls on a reguler basis (never heard of such a thing but that was Jims criteria) I would rather avoid them.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883
Ted Pinson wrote: In most situations, clipping the anchor is a bad idea, especially if it's a gear anchor.
Blanket statements like this should be eliminated from intelligent climbing conversations. It also misses the mark regarding Will Gadd's article. One of his points:

"I’m being safer because I’ve done something” when in fact I think it’s often more dangerous than not clipping the top piece."

I agree with this because it is devoid of thought. Doing something because you were told to do so. This is the real issue in so many areas of climbing. Clipping the top piece is better than the alternative SOMETIMES AND WORSE SOMETIMES. As usual, it depends. It depends on the alternate consequences.

Gadd makes some valid points for sure. But, he does not discuss the alternative event when not clipping a top piece. Yes, factor 2. But, not the change in belay direction. With a piece clipped above, the belayer probably palm down, will brake down. Without a piece clipped, the belay direction will change in a fraction of a second. Now, the belayer needs to brake up! This is very difficult to do when not prepared, especially on factor 2. Rgold has brought this up many times as well. Good luck.

Many things in climbing are situation dependent. This is one of them.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

It all goes back to Not takeing FF2 falls and how to NOt have that happen. often slab climbing you have little or no choice but to run it out to the next bolt. Is a slab fall really FF2? either way i have never tested the theory before getting that 1st bolt after the belay..

Paul Deger · · Colorado · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 36

On passive braking devices like MJ, would not the braking engage whether the device is pointing up or down? Passive braking depends upon the orientation of biner to device - it seems tension on the climber side of the rope would pull biner to device whether both are pointing up or down?

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

^^^ well yes. That seems like a valid point except that the jul does not hold a ff2 well on its own. So braking direction is important.

Paul Deger · · Colorado · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 36
Greg D wrote:^^^ well yes. That seems like a valid point except that the jul does not hold a ff2 well on its own. So braking direction is important.
Good point, not expecting any device to stop fall without brake hand as well as passive capacity. I have found the Salewa Ergo to have greater and quicker braking than the MJ. It would seem to me better than an ATC-like device, as well.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Jim Titt wrote:The Serenity 8.9 is an older model still available at some shops at least here in Germany. The MegaJul and some of the other devices of this kind like the AlpineUp specifically exclude FF2 falls in their instructions. Another reason not to carry them on multi-pitch routes.
Jim, Thank you for your astute observations and comments. I had no idea there was an older slightly thicker model of the Serenity. That just goes to show that testing ropes on the outer edges of a belay devices rope diameter specification is pretty important. I did notice in in the Grigri 2 manual that they give a optimal rope diameter specification of 9.4 to 10.3.

In terms of the manuals for the Megajul and Alpine Up, for those that want a reference and don't want to dig for it:

edelrid.de/out/documents/do…

Edelrid Megajul manual showing death with factor 2 falls.

"14. If you secure others with your body in a multi rope length route, be sure at least one intermediate securing point lies between the securing device
and the climber."


climbingtechnology.com/wp-c…

Climbing Technologies Alpine Up manual showing death with factor 2 falls.

"6) CLICK-UP MODE - BELAYING THE LEAD CLIMBER.
Before setting out, the lead climber must be safely anchored and check that the Alpine Up works correctly. Make sure the leader’s knot is correct and the rope is uncoiled. Stand in a convenient position so as not to hinder operations. Warning! Remember to hold the free end of the rope in your hand at all times!
Risk of death!When ascending a multi-pitch route, before setting up on a new pitch, the leader’s rope must pass through a directional anchorage on the belay point. If not, the Alpine Up may not work if the lead climber falls (figs. 5.6 and 5.7)."


I wanted to post information about the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay from it's manual, but Mammut does not keep their user manuals online and I could not find my own. I imagine it's quite similar to the prior two. If anyone has a physical copy of the manual perhaps you could take pictures of the relevant parts and post it here?

I couldn't find any information in Petzl's Grigri 2 manual about factor 2 falls. How is it that we know they will catch them safely?

petzl.com/sfc/servlet.sheph…

What I still don't understand, is what exactly happens with brake assisted devices like the Megajul, Alpine Smart Belay, and Alpine Up in a factor 2 fall?
Will it completely fail and the climber drops? Will it damage and/or cut the rope and potentially dropping the climber? Or will it slip some rope through until the climber comes to a stop further down than expected? Are the manuals for these devices simply waiving their liability for the safety of the climber in a factor 2 fall, or they just won't hold at all?

I would think this would be pretty important information to know. I wish we could test this on the rig that rgold described using years ago to practice these sort of catches. In the mean time, myself and my climbing partners will be using belay gloves and being even more observant of avoiding factor 2 falls with proper techniques.
dino74 · · Oceanside, CA · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 70
anotherclimber wrote:I wanted to post information about the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay from it's manual, but Mammut does not keep their user manuals online and I could not find my own.
I found these two

test.mammut.ch/images/Smart…
mammut.ch/documents/Hardwar…
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

With the MJ and others in a FF2 unless the belayer moves their hand above the device it fails to lock at all, hence the warnings.
The GriGri and it´s relatives are required to stop a FF2 hands free to pass the standard for assisted locking devices, the others don´t and can´t so are just manual belay devices.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Yup, the semiautomatic devices are all in the same category as ordinary tube-style devices when it comes to factor-2 falls. All you get for friction is the rope running around the attachment carabiner unless the brake hand is brought above the device---a conscious reaction that is the opposite of the way one brakes leader falls through overhead protection.

If the brake hand is brought above the device, then locking action will be initiated, but the tests of Jim an others suggests that with the high loads encountered, the belayer is stuck with an inferior device.

The Alpine Up is the "least inferior" of the devices, the MJ is the worst. But the Alpine Up might cause sheath damage.

Instructions to always clip the belay anchor may work in an environment where the belay anchors have been bolted, but are simply unrealistic as a general rule when it comes to trad climbing.

Mark Pell · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 70

ALEKS- You make several valid points and of course these are interesting things to talk about, but this still always comes around to personal preferences and what level of involvement one likes to have in the belaying process. This can be a situational decision too; i.e. gym vs. outdoors, toproping vs. lead climbing, 'hard' lead vs. 'easy' lead, friend vs. stranger, etc. Further, the choice of belay device/technique can also be influenced by ones views on reliability of mechanical devices and competence of operators. The so-called 'Yosemite Method' of yore emphasized mechanical simplicity, reliability, versatility and light weight. Those are the primary reasons I still prefer ATC type-devices, and have primarily used simple friction devices like Tuber, Trango and ATC at various times over the past few decades. Can you drop someone with these? Yes. Have I seen climbers dropped to the floor or ground using Grigri, etc.? Yes.

Paul Deger · · Colorado · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 36

Thanks for sharing from manuels. Take-away: always place piece (or bolt) as soon as possible on 2+ pitch - perhaps before even leave the belay station. And wear gloves!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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