The deadly ATC

OK I think I see where the palm down vs palm up statement was going, but I don't agree with it.

It's not that you want your hand oriented in a certain way, it's that you want it in a certain position relative to the climber and device. If the climber is above me and not taking an FF2, then the climber is above the device and my hand should be below the device, and the normal hip/butt position with palm down accomplishes this. In an FF2 scenario the climber will end up below me, and I will want my hand above the device. But since my device will have moved downward following the pull of the rope, about 12-18" depending on size of belay loop and belay carabiner, the standard hip/butt hand position will already do that. Now, it's true the rope will be pulling my hand in the opposite of the expected direction, but my wrist should naturally rotate to accommodate that.

(That's assuming there are zero clipped pieces between me and the climber. If there's at least one then even in an extreme fall scenario the normal position is still correct.)

Am I missing something?

Whatever. I hip belay now. Anyways.

Noah Yetter wrote:OK I think I see where the palm down vs palm up statement was going, but I don't agree with it. It's not that you want your hand oriented in a certain way, it's that you want it in a certain position relative to the climber and device. If the climber is above me and not taking an FF2, then the climber is above the device and my hand should be below the device, and the normal hip/butt position with palm down accomplishes this. In an FF2 scenario the climber will end up below me, and I will want my hand above the device. But since my device will have moved downward following the pull of the rope, about 12-18" depending on size of belay loop and belay carabiner, the standard hip/butt hand position will already do that. Now, it's true the rope will be pulling my hand in the opposite of the expected direction, but my wrist should naturally rotate to accommodate that. (That's assuming there are zero clipped pieces between me and the climber. If there's at least one then even in an extreme fall scenario the normal position is still correct.) Am I missing something?

I don't know for sure which palm orientation is better, but I suspect palm-up. If you keep the palm-down orientation with your hand above the device during a factor-2 fall, don't forget that your hand is going to get sucked towards the device. This seems to me to torque the wrist towards the device and lever on the thumb, neither of which seems conducive to optimal braking effort. It also seems easier to me to get the non-brake hand on the brake strand for two-handed braking if the original brake hand is palm up.

I've partially tested this once with a factor 1.8 catch on a piece that was horizontally out from the belay at around the level of the device. I managed to brake this palm-up at chest level with a Reverso.

It's a little surprising to me how little attention is paid to these issues.

The consensus is Palm Down.

There's nothing close to a consensus about how to handle a factor-2 fall with an ATC or semi-automatic device.

Check out the new AMGA universal standard for belaying. I understand what you are saying. Move the brake hand up the rope when it's in the brake position.
Chris.

Hard to explain. I guess i explained the way for top rope belaying. Anyways. Hand Down. The position of power.

It would be cool to clumb in Poughkeepsie's as long as you belay me hands down. Never climbed in the east. The Gunks always looked so FUN. So steep.

Chris CW wrote:Check out the new AMGA universal standard for belaying. I understand what you are saying. Move the brake hand up the rope when it's in the brake position. Chris.

For top-rope belaying, yes. For lead belaying too once there is a piece in.

It's AAC, not AMGA, and everything I've seen them say about lead belaying is about single-pitch leads. The material is a bit spread out, so I could have missed a discussion of the factor-2 situation, but as far as I can tell they never mention it.

By the way, although I think the materials are excellent, the AAC presents a number of very non-consensus techniques. This means that whatever else they might be good for, they are not necessarily a source of consensus opinions.

So anyway, if the palm-down brake hand is above the device and being torqued and pulled towards it in a factor-2 fall scenario, it isn't obvious to me that palm down is the strongest orientation, that's all I'm saying. I'm unaware of any consensus about this and haven't found any statements about it on the AAC site.

I am not a guide and not certified with AMGA. I do know AMGA teaches thier guides to always belay hands down. Not sure about other things. Such as using all belay devices the same way. i.e. never take the brake hand off the rope.

I spot the climber like they are bouldering until the first piece is in. After 25 plus feet they are on their own until they put thier first piece in.

Edit: With the Factor Two Fall; That should never happen, should it? Only on climbs that state, it's possible that it might happen. Or maybe on a FFA or FA. Or maybe if you accidentally get off route. My only personal experience with a Factor Two fall was on a Three pitch climb. I clipped a piton 5 feet above the ledge, climbed 25 feet, and fell 50 feet past the ledge and my belayer. That's a 50 foot fall with 30 feet of rope out which makes for a factor fall of 1.7. That's not counting all the slack and dynamic stretch in the system. My partner caught me while belaying with his brake hand down on the rope. There must of been a lot of force (Maybe not) because the Black Diamond "D" biner's gate fluttered open, and on impact the spine of the biner stretched, and the gate went outside of the Nose of the Biner as the spine went back into its original state. The biner didn't break. The gate was hanging outside of the Carabiner. The rope was still inside the Carabiner. Anyways Long story short. My partner caught me. And the Piton and the Carabiner caught me. And the rope didn't break. And the Belay system along with the anchor didn't break. That was the only objects that was in the system. Clean fall.

Here it is; amga.com/amga-and-outdoor-r…

Of Course I don't think they give all the videos. And that first video could have been done better.

EDIT Again: Probably take's a 8 minute video to quickly address all the basic principle's of lead Belaying.
Kind of makes me want to get involved, myself. Time, Money, and most of all, commitment, keeps me from doing it.
Chris W.

Chris CW wrote:Here it is; amga.com/amga-and-outdoor-r…

But those are instructions for single-pitch belaying with the belayer on the ground. They aren't relevant to what I've said.

They say hand down is position of power. So if your partner falls past you, you still want your belay hand in the downward position.

EDIT: once again. I can't keep from thinking what the total kN were or LBF's were. A open Gate BD "Light D" is 5395 LBF's. So there was at least 5395 lbs of force when the rope caught me. That can't be right. The Carabiner didn't actually brake. It just stretched a little.

As the Late Dean Potter said. "We are happiest when living at a most simplistic level. Eating, Sleeping, hanging, climbing....life at its finest".

Climbing really is simple at it's core.

On multipitch climbs I have always belayed with the Munter hitch, and always directly on the belay, not on my body. That's how I was teached in real old fashioned German/Austrian style (I am Dutch). I have catched some large falls, but never a factor 2 fall. Would I be able to catch a factor 2 fall with a Munter?

I am quite astonished about this thread, never thought about it in this way. It looks like autoblocks/assisted devices are gaining popularity for multipitch climbs overhere in Central Europe too. But this issue of the potential bad consequences with factor 2 falls (rare but not impossible) seem to be overlooked.

rgold wrote: I don't know for sure which palm orientation is better, but I suspect palm-up. If you keep the palm-down orientation with your hand above the device during a factor-2 fall, don't forget that your hand is going to get sucked towards the device.

You make a fair point, but I'm confident I could catch a factor 2 onto my harness even with my hand starting in the palms down orientation, and the palms down seems to be better (and for me, more natural) in every other situation.

And factor 2 falls onto your harness should be extremely rare. You can almost always redirect through a biner on the highest anchor piece. In that case the pull is only downward on your belay device if that piece blows. I guess another exception is if the whole anchor is actually below the belayer (maybe on a ledge?), but in that case a factor 2 puts you in a world of hurt either way.

All that said, I've been belayed by palms-up folks, and I never thought there was anything wrong with it. In fact I'd prefer for belayers to do what they're more comfortable (and practiced) with.

Paul Deger wrote:To the palm up vs palm down discussion: if climber is below me and I have palm up, I only engaging elbow (bicep) to arrest a fall. With palm down, I can engage elbow and shoulder (bicep and large shoulder and scapula adductors along back). While I do not have data to support, anatomically it seems more muscle mass, therefore more force generated with palm down, even if climber below me. Also, with factor 2, if paying attention, I see and react to the fall when they are above me and start engage the device in an upright position. Only advantage I see to palm up grib, once climber beneath me, is force of rope against palm instead of fingers. As I have never caught a factor 2, I may not be correctly imagining.

The grip strength of climbers has been tested with the pull from above and below, the average was 0.36kN upwards and 0.24kN downwards suggesting that palm up is considerably weaker.

I always find it remarkable the numbers of climbers that are seemingly unaware of the dangers of FF2 belayer turn arounds, with accompanying loss of belay control, when multi- pitching. In turn people discuss hand up/hand down, which in my experience really matters very little, if at all.

I agree with what RGold posted, some drops BITD were possible I suppose, and there were to be sure, less climbers, and no internet, but pretty much if you dropped someone back then you would be a pariah from there out.

First twenty years of my climbing life, we never, ever belayed without being anchored to something at the base, though the faint of heart would occasionally want to belay directly from the tree or anchor. Those people were usually weeded out early on too.

At a ledge, comfort was not usually a consideration, stancing was the goal, to catch a fall without actually loading the anchor much.Trying to Z-haul your fallen/ unable partner past some crux would get you laughed off the cliff, but as we always stanced and belayed from our swami or harness, it was quite easy to tension someone through a weak moment.

One thing that seems to have changed is that, at least the people I have climbed with, there really were not leaders, mentors and follower/ noobs. We all led, and pretty much I did not consider myself to have done a route unless I led it ( like the Fritz Weissner story ), so everybody took belaying seriously as you knew your time on the sharp end was coming.

In the Gunks I rarely, if ever lowered off anything, but we were pretty much all business, never a posse except for the occasional bit of late day socialization perhaps. Staying up there, dealing with setting up a multi-pitch anchor, and then being joined by your partner, now well above the fray, was part of the fun. Top roping in the Gunks seemed, well, moronic, and I could count on one hand the times I saw it done right of the Uberfall.

We used Stitch plates mostly, but had no qualms about hip belays. I still do them slab climbing as I find it faster and easier than racing rope through a device. I caught leader falls of guys several stones heavier than I on them, and it's not the big deal people today seem to think it is.

Personally I think it's mostly the idea that certain new gadgets are " foolproof" or " automatic " that lies at the bottom ( pun unavoidable ) of the issue of bad belaying.

Mel Hamel, Patty Lanzetta and I were doing Morning After one day, while a party started up Sixish. The guy leader seemed plenty competent, skipped the first belay and was up near the P2 crux, while his GF lay flat on the ground belaying and chatting. He calmly called down " falling " and then after a slight delay could be seen arcing through the air for quite some time. He went about ninety feet, tagged the belay stance with his knee, she flew into the air about ten feet, prone, and they barely missed colliding. She landed on her back and head. I just looked at Patty and said " don't EVER let that happen to you ".

Tom Stryker wrote:I always find it remarkable the numbers of climbers that are seemingly unaware of the dangers of FF2 belayer turn arounds, with accompanying loss of belay control, when multi- pitching. In turn people discuss hand up/hand down, which in my experience really matters very little, if at all. I agree with what RGold posted, some drops BITD were possible I suppose, and there were to be sure, less climbers, and no internet, but pretty much if you dropped someone back then you would be a pariah from there out. First twenty years of my climbing life, we never, ever belayed without being anchored to something at the base, though the faint of heart would occasionally want to belay directly from the tree or anchor. Those people were usually weeded out early on too. At a ledge, comfort was not usually a consideration, stancing was the goal, to catch a fall without actually loading the anchor much.Trying to Z-haul your fallen/ unable partner past some crux would get you laughed off the cliff, but as we always stanced and belayed from our swami or harness, it was quite easy to tension someone through a weak moment. One thing that seems to have changed is that, at least the people I have climbed with, there really were not leaders, mentors and follower/ noobs. We all led, and pretty much I did not consider myself to have done a route unless I led it ( like the Fritz Weissner story ), so everybody took belaying seriously as you knew your time on the sharp end was coming. In the Gunks I rarely, if ever lowered off anything, but we were pretty much all business, never a posse except for the occasional bit of late day socialization perhaps. Staying up there, dealing with setting up a multi-pitch anchor, and then being joined by your partner, now well above the fray, was part of the fun. Top roping in the Gunks seemed, well, moronic, and I could count on one hand the times I saw it done right of the Uberfall. We used Stitch plates mostly, but had no qualms about hip belays. I still do them slab climbing as I find it faster and easier than racing rope through a device. I caught leader falls of guys several stones heavier than I on them, and it's not the big deal people today seem to think it is. Personally I think it's mostly the idea that certain new gadgets are " foolproof" or " automatic " that lies at the bottom ( pun unavoidable ) of the issue of bad belaying. Mel Hamel, Patty Lanzetta and I were doing Morning After one day, while a party started up Sixish. The guy leader seemed plenty competent, skipped the first belay and was up near the P2 crux, while his GF lay flat on the ground belaying and chatting. He calmly called down " falling " and then after a slight delay could be seen arcing through the air for quite some time. He went about ninety feet, tagged the belay stance with his knee, she flew into the air about ten feet, prone, and they barely missed colliding. She landed on her back and head. I just looked at Patty and said " don't EVER let that happen to you ".

Cool story bro.

The really cool story I suspect Rich will recall is the guy that pitched off the last pitch of High Exposure, cut his rope on the ledge edge as we all were warned could happen, free fell 165', finished up through some trees, landed on boulders you could not have jumped six feet onto without injury, broke his ankle and got some road rash and was back at the cliff by late afternoon with a cast and crutches.

Tom Stryker wrote:the guy that pitched off the last pitch of High Exposure, cut his rope on the ledge edge as we all were warned could happen, free fell 165', finished up through some trees,

You have a good memory. That was Spring of 1979...