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Universal Belay Standard

J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Healyje wrote: Can't imagine. Have held endless long and hard lead falls on hip belays. Wouldn't want to have experienced a single one of them with the rope on my waist. P.S. Tim Lutz and JQ - You're quips would have a more bite to them if your quip-to-salient-content ratio ever managed rachet up over about 5% (that or if you could get up one of my routes, which is doubtful)
Not a quip dude, I am seriously waiting for a discussion on how to disable the anti lock breaks on my car so I can be more bad ass like you. So many crappy "safety" features are ruining this world.
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
J Q wrote: Not a quip dude, I am seriously waiting for a discussion on how to disable the anti lock breaks on my car so I can be more bad ass like you. So many crappy "safety" features are ruining this world.
Your analogies are all wrong. Seat belts are empirically safer in almost all instances. Anti lock breaks are a known trade off between control and stopping distance.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
J Q wrote:So many crappy "safety" features are ruining this world.
Back up this assertion please. What features? How are they ruining the world?
Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90
Rick Blair wrote: Your analogies are all wrong. Seat belts are empirically safer in almost all instances. Anti lock breaks are a known trade off between control and stopping distance.
Can't help myself:

Unless you're a driving god, anti-lock brakes will reduce stopping distance, especially if you just slam the brakes and let it slide.

Marc801 wrote: Back up this assertion please. What features? How are they ruining the world?
I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Rick Blair wrote: Your analogies are all wrong. Seat belts are empirically safer in almost all instances. Anti lock breaks are a known trade off between control and stopping distance.
This is exactly why I want to take out the anti lock breaks and get back to the good old days when men were men and women were scared. Climbing with shaky handed weak old men holding non auto locking devices is a know trade off of looking cool and being safe.

As for your ludicrous claim about seat belts being empirically safer, lol, last week some gumby put the seat belt around his friends neck and then slammed on the anti-lock breaks, his friend was decapitated.

Seat-belts are only safe if you use them properly, sadly, in this gym environment, too many beginners are not receiving safe instruction on how to use seat-belts and the rest of the drivers have to suffer.

Additionally, they give inexperienced drives a false sense of safety which encourages them to not look where they are driving while excessively speeding.

Don't believe the hype Rick, life was better without those safety features, your just too scared to admit it.
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
Brian L. wrote: Can't help myself: Unless you're a driving god, anti-lock brakes will reduce stopping distance, especially if you just slam the brakes and let it slide.
www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/…
From National Highway Transportation Safety admin

Median Percent Reduction of Stopping Distance
ABS Enabled Versus ABS Disabled
Road Surface Four-Wheel ABS Rear-Wheel ABS
Dry concrete 5 – 6
Wet asphalt/concrete 14 – 6
Wet Jennite 43 7
Wet epoxy 10 – 12
Gravel – 28 – 18

So this study is mixed.

I can tell you I am in my mid 40s, grew up in an area of the country with notoriously horrible roads in the winter and you do not have to be a "driving god" to stop a car in slippery conditions.

I can also tell you I have owned a '97 subaru and still own an '02. Without a doubt I could stop faster with both these vehicles without the ABS. My stopping distance on 2002 when it is icy is absurd. Perhaps these systems have improved since my cars are old but for rear wheel the chart above would indicate in some cases they have not.

Edit: I cant make a chart display properly on here, page 4 in pdf
Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90

That's an interesting article, thanks for posting it.

Those tests were conducted between 1988 and 1991. (first sentence on page 2). ABS systems have significantly changed, and improved since that time. Pretty much all vehicles have 4 wheel/4 channel ABS (can pulse individual wheels), which wasn't the case back then. Most vehicles at that time, if they had ABS, were probably 2 wheel 1 channel on trucks (pulses both brakes if 1 wheel locks - this is the RR ABS case), or 4 wheel 2 channel on cars (pulses diagonal pairs of brakes if one wheel locks up [ex: LH FR and RH RR together])

That linking in non-independent systems would reducing braking force on a wheel that wasn't locked, reducing the overall braking performance that could have been achieved.

But even at that time, the data shows passenger vehicles still stopped faster on any surface but gravel.

Patrik · · Third rock from Sun · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 30

A saying in the airline safety industry that could be relevant to climbing (and driving with seat belts/air bags/anti lock brakes) as well:

"If you think you are safe, you are dangerous. If you think you are dangerous, you are safe"
(does "auto-lock" devices and its "induced" user behavior ring a bell??)

For those of you REALLY interested in seat belts: do a search on "Seat belt Sam". He did research on various safety topics and found that driver fatality went down with seat belt laws (no surprise there), but total number of accidents and pedestrian fatalities went up.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Rick Blair wrote: www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/… From National Highway Transportation Safety admin Median Percent Reduction of Stopping Distance ABS Enabled Versus ABS Disabled Road Surface Four-Wheel ABS Rear-Wheel ABS Dry concrete 5 – 6 Wet asphalt/concrete 14 – 6 Wet Jennite 43 7 Wet epoxy 10 – 12 Gravel – 28 – 18 So this study is mixed. I can tell you I am in my mid 40s, grew up in an area of the country with notoriously horrible roads in the winter and you do not have to be a "driving god" to stop a car in slippery conditions. I can also tell you I have owned a '97 subaru and still own an '02. Without a doubt I could stop faster with both these vehicles without the ABS. My stopping distance on 2002 when it is icy is absurd. Perhaps these systems have improved since my cars are old but for rear wheel the chart above would indicate in some cases they have not. Edit: I cant make a chart display properly on here, page 4 in pdf
Ha! We´re on our third Subaru Forester and on all of them I´ve fitted a cut-off switch for the ABS for winter use. In some countries like Canada (and the mountain states in the US) it was factory standard. The Mercs and Suabarus I´ve had have all been far to agressive with the ABS, VW sort-of acceptable, BMW good.
wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674

And soon you can get a little card that says you know how:

"COMING SOON: Take the AAC Universal Belay Standard course at your local gym, club, school, or course provider. You will receive a Universal Belay Certificate that will give you and your partners knowledge and confidence in your ability to belay safely."

americanalpineclub.org/univ…

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
J Q wrote: Not a quip dude, I am seriously waiting for a discussion on how to disable the anti lock breaks on my car so I can be more bad ass like you. So many crappy "safety" features are ruining this world.
Not a bad ass, merely competent. No different it comes to anti-lock brakes. If you grew up in the midwest learning to pump brakes in the winter and are competent driving in snow and ice then anti-lock brakes are counter-productive. If you're one of the masses who just stand on the brakes pedal when things get dicey then, sure, by all means, get anti-lock brakes.

And no standard of any kind will alleviate dropping any more than this or that device - it really doesn't have anything to do with 'standards', technology or devices.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

I often turn off my Honda's VSA system when on tricky dirt or snow roads, especially if going relatively slow anyways.

And I use an ATC (not an ATC Guide).

Have neither wrecked my car during the 7+ years that I have had it, nor dropped anyone in 12 years of ATC belays from above and below.

Cheers!
Bill

Rich Scillia · · Wichita, KS · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 20

Why are the techniques shown in the videos here different from what seems to be diagrammed in Freedom of the Hills?

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

In November I bought a 2013 Xterra Pro-4x. The anti-lock brakes are way better than Subaru. I actually don't mind it at all. It provides just a small amount of "pump". The traction control system also has an "off" switch. I am a happy camper.

I donated the 2002 Forrester BTW and I don't buy new cars.

Keep your hand on the brake strand.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Beginning Climbers
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