Boulder, CO climber moving to East Coast

doligo wrote:Not a single person who poo-poos in this thread on NYC lives or actually has lived in NYC. Traffic is not that bad. It's not the Front Range type of thing when everybody on weekends goes mass exodus out of the city on a single artery. There are lots of ways to get out of the city, including mass transport, unlike Denver area. If you are going to be traveling a lot, living in New York would get you easier access to the airports via mass transit or cheap taxi fare (LGA) without worrying about driving and parking. There are three (!) major international airports all accessible via mass transit (way more efficient than the light trail in Denver). There are lots of parks and greenways and green spaces in NY, all reachable via single Metrocard swipe. Living in New York is a great once in a lifetime experience. It only sucks if you are a visitor (overpriced, overcrowded, overhyped).

Please... I lived in the Upper West side and worked the Upper East side and Wall Street. I've renovated many parking garages in the city. I make the drive from Manhattan to the Gunks and Adirondacks a lot. The last time I drove into the city from Keene NY was last month. Traffic is much worse than even 10 years ago. Can it be easy to leave the city to head to the Gunks? Sure.. can it be a nightmare? Damn right. You can't take a train to the Trapps without bumming a car ride.

Oh and Peter Beal lives there and commented too. Where you live?

If I don't comment more about your silly assumptions it's because I've reached my post limit.

doligo wrote:Not a single person who poo-poos in this thread on NYC lives or actually has lived in NYC. Traffic is not that bad.

Denial.

...you'll be back soon enough. It's crazy just how many people from that region are now in CO.

I would have to think long and hard about moving any further east than CO after growing up here and enjoying all the west has to offer the last 30+ years.

trice Rice wrote: any city dwellers here? is living in a city fun enough to not live with immediate access to the outdoors? I love living within a 3 minute run from the trails/mountains, but could sacrifice it for a couple years if the city life is fun. I really don't know yet, but love the different opinions!

I've lived in every borough over the past 10 years. Is it fun? It can be. It's not '3 minutes away from the trails / crag' fun, though. If you expect to have flexibility with where you live (meaning, if you can move around if you don't like it) and just want to try out something -- NYC is a good bet. If you know what you want and what you want is easy access to the outdoors, then look elsewhere.

Also, where in NYC matters a lot. Whereas it takes me 75 mins some days from my door to the gunks parking lot, some folks in Brooklyn need to travel for ~2 hours or more. As other have pointed out there are good parks and city trails, but you need to do your research and make sure you pick a neighborhood with good access to those.

Bill Kirby wrote: Please... I lived in the Upper West side and worked the Upper East side and Wall Street. I've renovated many parking garages in the city. I make the drive from Manhattan to the Gunks and Adirondacks a lot. The last time I drove into the city from Keene NY was last month. Traffic is much worse than even 10 years ago. Can it be easy to leave the city to head to the Gunks? Sure.. can it be a nightmare? Damn right. You can't take a train to the Trapps without bumming a car ride. Oh and Peter Beal lives there and commented too. Where you live? If I don't comment more about your silly assumptions it's because I've reached my post limit.

It's different if you are trying to leave Manhattan after work. Usually people drive in the opposite direction of the commute when trying to get to the Gunks, for many it's a daytrip on weekends, early am to late pm (as in eat dinner in New Paltz, and then drive home). Unlike Denver area, where there is only one way to the mountains, and everybody uses it, there are many different ways to get out of the city driving or catching a commuter train to the station where you can rent a car or do a zipcar (is it still a thing?). Because there are many public transit options, there are not as many cars on the roads (compared to zero public transportation like in CO Front Range area).

My point exactly, doesn't sound like you've spent enough time in the city to find better ways around. If you live in outer boroughs like Queens, Brooklyn or Bronx you could avoid a lot of traffic cluster in Manhattan. BQE (highway runs through Brooklyn and Queens) is your friend - takes you to the Tri-Borough bridge (your gateway to New England) in minutes.

I've lived 12 years in NYC (Queens and Manhattan) and managed to get out of the city on a weekly basis, lived in New Paltz, have spent some time in Boulder/Denver area (so I know where the OP is coming from) and now live in SW Colorado in a county with a single traffic light.

If the access to the outdoors is more important than an easy access to the airports, I would live in the immediate vicinity of climbing, say in the New Paltz area (forget CT). Just because weather sucks and if you wait for perfect weather, you may not get too many climbing days, but if you live right where climbing is you can get out for an hour or two between storms or on a nice sunny winter day. Or climb late evenings in the middle of hot summer. New Paltz is smaller and more intimate than Boulder btw with a really nice close-knit climbing community.

Just to chime in on the NYC thing... I lived just outside the city and worked in the city a lot. What a New Yorker may consider "manageable" as far as traffic and chaos would most likely be unacceptable to someone that isn't accustomed to it. Do I know all the routes into and out of the city to avoid traffic? Sure.

There's a reason I don't live there.

If you want intensity and mass quantities of people as well as super deep culture and food, go for it. But don't expect NYC to be manageable for a passionate outdoor individual.

I've encountered awful traffic in Washington DC, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, Boston, and New York. According to 247wallst.com/special-repor…, New York comes in fourth in traffic badness and according to usnews.com/news/slideshows/… it comes in fifth. None of the worst traffic jams I've been in were in NYC.

I lived in NYC for thirty years or so before moving to Poughkeepsie. I commute down to the Bronx 3--4 days a week for work (1.3 hrs), and regularly drive to Brooklyn to visit my daughter (1.75 hrs). Perhaps familiarity breeds contempt, but I don't find traffic to be all that bad in general and usually not a bother outside of rush hours.

I've got some ok trail running and a nice climbing gym 15 minutes from my house. Ironically, all the climbers who live in New Paltz now drive to Poughkeepsie for the gym. The Gunks, with its extensive outdoor climbing, hiking, running, etc opportunities is about 30 minutes away, and there is more good hiking/trail running in the Hudson Highlands 50 minutes away. There's also windsurfing and sailing on the Hudson if that sort of thing appeals.

NYC by Metro North train is about 1.5--1.75 hrs away if I don't want to drive. Amtrak also runs from Poughkeepsie to NY, Philly, and Washington DC and for those places might be overall faster than flying. If the Amtrak option turned out to be attractive, then the Poughkeepsie area could be a better compromise between access to transportation and access to outdoor activities than New Paltz.

I live in Denver. My commute is 15 minutes. There are over 3000 routes within 45 minutes of my door, 1500 of them about 30 min away.

Just sayin.

You guys are fucking awesome for all of these sweet responses! I am reading every comment and love the differing opinions.

while I originally thought that CT was the leading candidate I now am really struggling between a few decisions (which you are more than welcome to comment on).

• New Paltz sounds pretty awesome and that is the leading east coast candidate
• You are really making me re-think leaving Boulder for this position at all
• I know that I want to go back to grad/med school in a couple years and I am not sure if leaving my residence in CO is worth it.

Now for a few questions to those who would like to respond!

• How many days can you actually climb or get outside if you live in New Paltz? Can you climb every day in the gunks from March/April to October? Is the weather only good in the spring/fall and too hot in the summer? How does the rain effect your climbing?
• Does anyone who travels 65+% of their time enjoy it? (obviously personal but if you want to answer)
• NYC would obviously be a crazy crazy shift. It is something that I actually really would like to experience (never lived in a city), but is it worth it to pay the insane cost of living if I will be away from home for 65% of my time?
• I really wanted to get into parasailing this summer and almost bought a $7k lesson plan that included a wing etc. Are there good paragliding locations to learn near New Paltz?

One of the main things I am struggling with is that I know this job will open up a whole new world to me. It will allow me to travel to places I have never been (east coast mainly with opportunities to travel internationally). But I fucking love Boulder. I love Colorado. I love living 10 minutes from eldo and next to endless amounts of running and scrambling in the flatirons. Is it worth it for me to give that up for a new opportunity and new experiences? (that is probably a question that only I can answer)

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond. This is the biggest decision of my life so far.

trice Rice wrote: * Does anyone who travels 65+% of their time enjoy it? (obviously personal but if you want to answer)

Some years I traveled in the range of 50%, and bumped it up to about 60% the first year I lived in France and I can tell you it is absolutely miserable. Forget about climbing, etc. with that type of travel schedule, you end up coming home and not wanting to go away for the weekend or do anything other than recover and get ready for the next business trip.

Traveling for work gets old fast. The Gunk's are great spring, summer and fall but don't expect as many days of sunshine. You can work around the rain though. It's not so bad.

. If you cherish easy access, New Paltz is the shit. Any other spot is not that.

For me, NYC isn't worth it in any circumstance. Too many people in a stressed out rush to go nowhere.

Opportunities to travel the world and experience living around the country are usually worth it. Especially if you are young. Experiences are invaluable. If you have the time, do it!

You may like it but the East is not the West. Not in the things you say you appreciate Colorado for.

Based on this:

trice Rice wrote:But I fucking love Boulder. I love Colorado. I love living 10 minutes from eldo and next to endless amounts of running and scrambling in the flatirons.

This:

trice Rice wrote:I know that I want to go back to grad/med school in a couple years and I am not sure if leaving my residence in CO is worth it.

...and the fact that it sounds as though your employer wants you in or near a major metro area, I think you're going to be unhappy making the move.

Of course, it's only a couple of years if you really do go back to school, so maybe it's worth the experience, but you seem so connected to the outdoors, and all the nearby high-quality access Boulder has, that you will miss it terribly.

I lived for nearly 40 years in the D.C. area, a region that has better climbing than it gets credit for, though it otherwise sucks. Whenever I could, I fled west to Colorado and beyond. This summer I moved somewhere warmer and drier where I can climb year-round. I miss my friends and the job I left behind, but I don't miss the lifestyle a single bit.

If you are traveling 65% of the time, and also looking to go climbing a lot in your free time, you'll basically have none of the benefits of living in NYC and all of the drawbacks. Just live upstate or in CT, where you are just a short train ride away from the city whenever you want to visit.

I grew up in the Mid Hudson Valley, and lived in CT for years. Both are good options for climbers. Central CT has lots of climbing options close by (and still driveable to Gunks, Rumney, Mass); Hundson Valley has one world class area (Gunks) but not much else (but not far from Dacks too).

Both are a short-ish drive to LGA too.

I look at it this way - some folks are city folks. They love what a vibrant, large city offers, want it all within reach, don't mind not owning a car, and for this there is arguably no place better on earth than NYC.

Other folks are country/outdoors folk. Have little-to-no use for the hustle and bustle of a dense metropolitan area, absolutely need open space and rigorous experience. For these folks, Colorado is pretty F'in close to perfect. A bit expensive and trendy in Boulder perhaps (and traffic is getting BAD; SIXTEEN lanes on Rt 36, are you kidding me??), but it is highly sought after for good reason.

Most folks fall somewhere in the middle. Where are you?

Rui Ferreira wrote: Some years I traveled in the range of 50%, and bumped it up to about 60% the first year I lived in France and I can tell you it is absolutely miserable. Forget about climbing, etc. with that type of travel schedule, you end up coming home and not wanting to go away for the weekend or do anything other than recover and get ready for the next business trip.

This is absolutely true. In a previous job I was at close to 50% travel, and it killed my climbing. When you're travelling two weeks in a row, it is pretty hard to get out of town for a climbing trip over the weekend in between. You often just need to spend that time dealing with all the life logistics you've neglected while away. Sure, you can make it a priority to squeeze the climbing in, but this is exhausting and will burn you out if you do it regularly. Training is hard too; everything is too inconsistent, and it is difficult to maintain fitness. It is also quite hard on the personal life- it is hard to develop or maintain relationships or friendships if you are never home.

I changed jobs (within the same organization) to get away from the travel, and would never again take a work position with such a large travel component.

Just a follow-up since the OP is now more on the fence. I grew up in New England and can personally attest to the long winters, erratic and humid weather and distances from climbing, especially near big cities like Boston and NYC. Traffic is brutal compared to just about anything in Colorado, except maybe right near Denver. Very few really serious climbers stay east for too long and for good reason. Unless you are getting a substantial premium (huge pay increase, plum job, free housing, etc.) for moving east, I would strongly recommend against it. Having lived in Boulder for over 20 years I see no reason ever to move back voluntarily.

Colorado is great for access to rock and mild weather but if you're young and have never left I say try something new. You might be pleasantly surprised. You can always go back - it's typically a lot easier to come home than to generate the initial motivation to leave. I suspect a lot of us struggled to leave home but are happy we did. Sure, New Paltz doesn't get 300 days of sunshine but it won't suck. At worst you experience some unique world class climbing (very different than Eldo) and gain a new appreciation for your home before going back.

If you're interested in medicine there is no lack of opportunity in the Northeast. Personally I like ice climbing but want to practice in a major academic center. I prefer small towns. If there were a teaching hospital on the western slope, in WY or MT I'd be stoked. But as it stands no place truly offers that except the Northeast. There are probably more teaching hospitals in Massachusetts alone than in the entire mountain West. To me working in Aurora/Denver or SLC is less appealing. Just an alternative perspective; we all love climbing but it seems as though you're interested in being multi-dimensional. You might be surprised where your career takes you.

trice Rice wrote:Does anyone who travels 65+% of their time enjoy it?

My sense from having done some business travel and knowing some people who did more than me is that a substantial percentage of the males who liked it were glad for the opportunity for lots of interesting / exotic sex partners. Second place might be sampling lots of restaurants and bars.
. . (I did not enjoy my periods of frequent business travel).

. . (Some people think that New York City is pretty good for that too).

New Paltz?
There's a reason why lots of East coast avid (trad) climbers move to Boulder long-term (rather than New Paltz). Because the climbing close to Boulder is way better than the Gunks. And the climbing in Colorado overall is way better than rock climbing in the Northeast US.

The key way that Boulder beats the Gunks is that Boulder has real multi-pitch with real commitment, and the Gunks does not. In the Gunks you're never more than one rope-length from the ground. If you really need to escape, just tie one end of your 60-meter rope to some sort of anchor and rappel on a single strand and you reach the ground. (Next day go back and hike along the top of the cliff and retrieve your rope -- or ask the ranger to help).

The trail-running in the Gunks I think is pretty nice: But mostly horizontal.
If you want bigger vertical, the trail-running in the Catskills and Adirondacks is completely inferior to the good stuff in Colorado. The White mountains in NH have some decent ridges, but it you (like me) wish for some fun scrambling in your trail runs, then not much there (and the Whites are a long drive from New Paltz).

So there's really no point in making the move to the East if your goal is to "sort of" replicate your Colorado experience.

My advice:
Go big and full on The City life and the business travel opportunities.

You just might find out that there are intense exciting things in life other than climbing. And worthwhile goals other than climbing.
. (You can always go back to climbing later).

You might discover that the alpine climbing in Europe just blows away Colorado's offerings.

And you can always go back to Boulder or Colorado later, but with a new confidence and perspective -- and lots of stories about how it's so much better than NorthEast, so much better than the Big City.

Ken

trice Rice wrote:Now for a few questions to those who would like to respond!

As far as whether you should move based on climbing criteria alone... it's been fairly well covered already. But to put it another way - we head West when we want adventure, long multipitch, etc.

I grew up on the east coast and lived in NYC for a short period, before moving to LA, and I now live in Boulder.

If I was in your position I would move to Manhattan. Travel, and being in melting pot like NYC, will wildly diversify your life.

That said, I'm a bit older now, and while I would consider moving back to the city for a couple of years, the allure of the city lights and the hustle still get me, I'd never make it a permanent move. I love the mountains too much and it's not same in the East.

It's a tough call, Boulder is an amazing place and flatiron laps and eldo mornings are unique, but if given the option between the known and unknown, I'd choose the unknown. Especially when the unknown is a magnetic place like NY.