Chipping Ethics

I was not. I have however climbed on my share of drilled pockets that were as young as five years old and many more that were around ten years old. That would put their births in the 2000's. Does this make these chipped holds millennials?

floclimbing.com/article/497…

:(

Healyje wrote: It wasn't ever ethical, especially in the 70s. In the 80's, with the advent of sport climbing, all kinds of this sort of shit broke out for awhile but was roundly criticized and cleaned up at the time. This was simply a result of the times and changing of techniques, was not done to create free climbing holds and has nothing to do with the topic of deliberately chipping or cutting holds.

because you were hanging at the sport crags so you know right? BS

Andrew Southworth wrote: Crush them up and use them as breading on fish. Delicious.

Jesus, great idea, I can only imagine the results in crab or fish cakes!

T Roper wrote: because you were hanging at the sport crags so you know right? BS

Good one, as if there were many 'sport crags' in the early 80's. Now piss off...

Healyje wrote: Uh,again, no it wasn't, it was just an unfortunate side-effect of the climbing tech of the time - no one was driving and pulling pins to create free climbing holds.

Exactly. It's an issue of intent, not results. If other means would have been available that didn't scar the rock, they would have been used. In addition, this is a well discussed issue. Someone even awarded Jim Bridwell a hammer and chisel for his birthday as a commentary of his enhancing seams to accept heads rather than drilling a bolt or rivet.

Given your concern about damage to the rock to permit upward progession, I'm sure you don't clip bolts, which someone conveniently installed by chipping the rock (with a drill).

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Chipping is totally legit and will even make you an untouchable hero as long as it is done while putting up an aid climb. Pitons just a wee bit too big for the crack work nicely. let it get beat out aid climbing for a few years and then bag the FFA.. more rock star power... Chipping is also completely legit and will make you a total rock star if you simply wear fruit boots and use ice tools. Climbing is completly full up to it's eyeballs with hipocracy and bullshit.....

I cant form a good paragraph today so let me break this down into bullet points
1. Pitons scarring the rock was never the intent it was a unfortunate side effect of the pro at the time.
2. Are you seriously suggesting people just waited for enough aid scars to make a route climbable?
3. dry tooling is pretty much limited to quarries so god forbid we chip some ugly ass scar on the landscape that has been abandoned by everyone including sport climbers.

Healyje wrote: Good one, as if there were many 'sport crags' in the early 80's. Now piss off...

you sir were nowhere near any of them but please continue to inform us all on the subject you heard about BITD

T Roper wrote:you sir were nowhere near any of them but please continue to inform us all on the subject you heard about BITD

Yeah, you're so right - thank god there were no bolt wars in the NE and Oregon was spared the whole 80's sport climbing thing.

Healyje wrote: Yeah, you're so right - thank god there were no bolt wars in the NE and Oregon was spared the whole 80's sport climbing thing.

yeah, you're right, you probably know about chipping since you were right there smack dab in the middle of it all. The Tradiban knows chipping, its what happens to their favorite trad lines when they mess with folks bolted lines. chop, chip, chop, chip...

that guy named seb wrote: I cant form a good paragraph today so let me break this down into bullet points.

Seb, let's be real here, you can never form a good paragraph. I think bullet points are more your style anyway.

Don Ferris wrote: Seb, let's be real here, you can never form a good paragraph. I think bullet points are more your style anyway.

True.

Bullshit seb.
1. Drytooling happens anywhere its cold and they can come up with an excuse.
2. lots of cracks have been hammered out to facilitate free climbing. At first it was accidental but once people recognized that it worked it was and is done on purpose. Also in the aid world it is pretty darn routine to trench for heads and enhance hook placements with chisels etc.

3. pitons were supposedly bad in the 70's. Clean climbing is the only way to go now. news flash morons. they still make and sell pitons. people are still nailing the shit out of whatever they want.

Climbing ethics are a whole lot more about who you are than how you actually climb. Achive hero status and you can do whatever you want and no one will notice if you screw up a bit here and there.. Without that hero status your dead meat for placeing a single bolt in the wrong cliff......

Nick Goldsmith wrote:1. Drytooling happens anywhere its cold and they can come up with an excuse.

It's pretty limited and there's usually discussion about where it's ok on local boards.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:2. lots of cracks have been hammered out to facilitate free climbing. At first it was accidental but once people recognized that it worked it was and is done on purpose.

And you can list a few examples of routes where people placed and pulled pins specifically to create free climbs? Didn't and doesn't happen.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Also in the aid world it is pretty darn routine to trench for heads and enhance hook placements with chisels etc.

Has and does occasionally happen when people are in over their heads (as it were), but still highly frowned upon and has nothing to do with chipping free climbing holds.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Pitons were supposedly bad in the 70's. Clean climbing is the only way to go now. news flash morons. they still make and sell pitons. people are still nailing the shit out of whatever they want.

Most get used in aid lines by people who aren't confident enough leave the ground without a hammer, in alpine, or they are used as permanently fixed pieces on rock. Again, nothing to do with chipping holds on free climbs.

Ignorance is bliss.

^^^
(Troll)

Nick Goldsmith wrote:2. lots of cracks have been hammered out to facilitate free climbing. At first it was accidental but once people recognized that it worked it was and is done on purpose. Also in the aid world it is pretty darn routine to trench for heads and enhance hook placements with chisels etc. 3. pitons were supposedly bad in the 70's. Clean climbing is the only way to go now. news flash morons. they still make and sell pitons. people are still nailing the shit out of whatever they want.

I understand the point you're making but I disagree to the extent which you make it. Initially, I believe that many climbers do what they want first and think of ethics second. However, that is NOT true across the board but is nevertheless used as an excuse for others to say 'BS, everyone who climbs is a hypocrite, so I'm going to do what I want'. Growing up is So Cal, you had pretty strong ethical role models such as Robbins, Bachar, Leclinski, etc. This is not revisionist history.

I don't dry tool, so I'll respond only to your second and third points.
2. I can think of very few instances where making pin scars was done to aid a free ascent, and none where it was looked upon favorably by the larger community. As to the latter point, I raised this earlier. Having said that, where the option is to enhance or drill, which is better? To condemn one is to accept the other.
3. I agree that people are still nailing stuff that they shouldn't. I did the Shield in the early 90s and had to use only half a dozen pins. Charlie Fowler later did it clean. Years larer, with aliens, beaks and other gear improvements, some are still nailing more than needed on that route, which is ridiculous but understandable. If you've been up there, with the exposure pulling on you like a vortex, you'd know the temptation. However, there is no nexus between the claim that because they sell pitons that people are routinely using them unnecessarily. Lots of those pins (like mine) are gathering dust somewhere with a small likelihood of being placed in the future.

So I think we agree more than we disagree but with some small differences. You can discuss ethics endlessly and sometimes you see eye to eye, and other times you have to respectfully disagree.

Ethics are situational for most people. the more sketchy the situation the more flexable the ethics. I don't have a problem with this. there is no glory in getting killed over ethics. I do find it amuseing when people hero worship and think that their heros never did anything wrong.

If you live in an ice climbing area you know that drytooling happens way, way more than you california rock climbers think. My personal rule is it has to have some significant ice on it to justify useing pointy steel shoes and giant steel hooks. My facebook feed I see lots of drytooling shots where half the time i can't see any ice. The more big name the climber is the less ice you see in the photo. Because they are a big name it is absolutely fine that they scratch the piss out of a rock climb.I have seen pleanty of scratched to piss rock in the summer...

The power of hero worship is really funny. About a decade or so ago North conway had a mini bolt war. Some young idealistic studs chopped some bolts and made some high faluting ethical staements. About the same time Gorge hurly started rap bolting the piss out of Humphrys ledge. Oh the quandry.. what to do.. The answer turned out to be hear no evil see no evil when the famous elderly gentelman drills but lets chop the bolts that no name guy put in on cathedral a half mile away.. pretty funny stuff..

In one of these ethics arguments someone proclaimed that folks should aspire to put up routs like a certain northeastern hero.. I did the 2nd ascent of a really nice multi pitch climb put up by the legend. The conversation we had was along the lines of we didn't think the last pitch would go but then we found a way through. We did the climb a week later and the last pitch was liberaly hammered. One significant big foot hold and 4 or 5 enhanced / hammered crimpers. I did the route the following spring with a sport climber who does a lot of sport developement. His take on the last pitch. Wow! he shure ain't no Micalangelo! I did the climb again a few years ago and it has weathered nicely. Ignorance is bliss......

My take on all of this is that climbing ethics are nessicary but in large part they are situational,hypocritical, full of shit and enforced more along the lines of who you are rather than how you actually climb.

What the $&@#!?