Do you stick clip? Why or why not?

That's a good point. The direct route on the 1st Flatiron is R rated, but how many people fall on a 5.6?

Climbing to the first bolt without a stick clip is essentially free soloing...or bouldering without a crash pad. Can you do it? Sure. Is it a good idea if you're getting on routes that are at your limit? Probably not. I think a major disconnect between the posters on this thread stems from the approach people take to climbing. If you're that confident that you won't fall, you're probably not climbing as hard as you could. For some people, that's not a priority and they'd rather keep it casual, at which point, if you don't feel that you need a stick clip, more power to you...but don't judge the people who are climbing much harder than you or question their ascents because they stick clipped.

Ted Pinson wrote:I think a major disconnect between the posters on this thread stems from the approach people take to climbing. If you're that confident that you won't fall, you're probably not climbing as hard as you could. For some people, that's not a priority and they'd rather keep it casual, at which point, if you don't feel that you need a stick clip, more power to you...but don't judge the people who are climbing much harder than you or question their ascents because they stick clipped.

I think a lot of folks lead runout pitches that are hard for them and on which they definitely feel they could fall off. People lead run out pitches that would be hard for just about anybody.

Those pitches can be very satisfying and require a different kind of self knowledge and self control than that required sport climbing. And some courage to roll the dice when the outcome truly matters.

That would be a literal pissing contest!</quote

you got my point.....:)

We ran into an unusual situation this summer. The "ground" beside the cliff, sloped at a really steep angle, not away, but parallel to the cliff. Climbing up was close to a hands and knees process, and I actually sort of semi reclined to belay, once I got my feet jammed on a boulder to keep from sliding.

In addition to steep, the whole slope by the wall was exfoliated, small flat flakes, like shale, that was super slippery.

Not seeing how to get to the first bolt without shooting down the hill, as even standing started a glissade, we found a stick and clipped it, just to keep the climber in range of the climb!

Only stick clip so far, but honestly, if I'm ever able to lead anything in our gym, I will be asking someone to clip the first one, or get an extra body for an actual, literal, catch if I fall. My knees can't take the compression of hitting the floor that hard now. :-(

OLH

Ted Pinson wrote:If you're that confident that you won't fall, you're probably not climbing as hard as you could. For some people, that's not a priority and they'd rather keep it casual, at which point...

Bingo. And then those same people that don't push themselves physically because it's not a priority, come on MP and spray to people that regularly DO climb as hard as they can, and denigrate them for wanting to protect against injury.

The catch is that they do it under the guise of climbing at their limit, when they really do not- and this is really all anyone was taking issue with.

don'tchuffonme wrote: Bingo. And then those same people that don't push themselves physically because it's not a priority, come on MP and spray to people that regularly DO climb as hard as they can, and denigrate them for wanting to protect against injury. The catch is that they do it under the guise of climbing at their limit, when they really do not- and this is really all anyone was taking issue with.

Good morning, John, and thanks for sharing. Welcom back to Mountain Project!

Shane Z wrote: Good morning, John, and thanks for sharing. Welcom back to Mountain Project!

No idea who John is, but you're welcome and thanks and I wish you the same. You'll find this funny: I'm not really a "sport" climber. Probably 70% of my climbing is on single pitch gear lines. So I'm kind of proof that someone can be a "traddy" yet not be strictly "old school" and obtuse to what's generally deemed acceptable among the different disciplines.

By the way, I also use crash pads on trad lines where the first piece is high, or the movement up to that first piece is at or near my limit. Unabashedly.

Not sure why we are still having this conversation...
In modern sport climbing we have many tools that make your day more enjoyable, manageable and safer such as auto locking belay devices, belay glasses, belay gloves and stick clips to name a few, with each having a proven benefit. Resisting the urge to add these things to your quiver just seems silly. Get a stick clip and ask someone to show you how many different things you can do with it.

Mike Snyder wrote:Not sure why we are still having this conversation... In modern sport climbing we have many tools that make your day more enjoyable, manageable and safer such as auto locking belay devices, belay glasses, belay gloves and stick clips to name a few, with each having a proven benefit. Resisting the urge to add these things to your quiver just seems silly. Get a stick clip and ask someone to show you how many different things you can do with it.

Yes !
Climbers were originally innovators, embracing, new technologies, evaluating, and passing judgement by consensus, on the usefulness & significant improvement on safety or systems
And including or rejecting those technologies as Tools for the kit.

don'tchuffonme wrote: No idea who John is, but you're welcome and thanks and I wish you the same. You'll find this funny: I'm not really a "sport" climber. Probably 70% of my climbing is on single pitch gear lines. So I'm kind of proof that someone can be a "traddy" yet not be strictly "old school" and obtuse to what's generally deemed acceptable among the different disciplines. By the way, I also use crash pads on trad lines where the first piece is high, or the movement up to that first piece is at or near my limit. Unabashedly.

Heh same here, actually (traddie). It's not even an "old school/new school" thing. The area where I climb regularly (Devil's Lake) is notorious for hard starts, bad pro, and nasty landings. I
Before portable crash pads, it was not unknown for hard-asses to drag mattresses up to the crag before attempting something stupid.

Michael Schneider wrote: Yes ! Climbers were originally innovators, embracing, new technologies, evaluating, and passing judgement by consensus,

Maybe not all climbers.

From Unjustifable Risk? The story of British climbing

Members of the Alpine Club dubbed the new wave of British rock climbers 'gymnasts' or 'chimney sweeps', by which they intended to imply both the intellectual and social inferiority of the sport as compared with alpinism. (Owen Glynne) Jones was unrepentant: 'A line must be drawn somewhere to separate the possible from the impossible, and some try to draw it by their own experience. They constitute what is called the ultra-gymnastic school of climbing. Its members are generally young and irresponsible.'

circa 1900

From John Ruskin, Sesame and Lillies

Therefore, gentlemen of the Alpine Club, as much danger as you care to face, by all means; but, if it please you, not so much talk of it. The real ground of reprehension of alpine climbing is that, with less cause, it excites more vanity than any other athletic skill.

1891

Mike Snyder wrote:Not sure why we are still having this conversation... In modern sport climbing we have many tools that make your day more enjoyable, manageable and safer such as auto locking belay devices, belay glasses, belay gloves and stick clips to name a few, with each having a proven benefit. Resisting the urge to add these things to your quiver just seems silly. Get a stick clip and ask someone to show you how many different things you can do with it.

It's all rather simple. Despite the somewhat esoteric direction the conversation took, it is really just ego. The people who denigrate stick clips and say just learn to climb harder or not do the route or downclimb are all merely thumping their chests, feeling better about themselves, and delighting in thinking they're showing the world how much gnarlier they are. Add in trying to apply their view of trad rules to a different discipline is just more ego.

It's really not worth our time to engage with them.

Using a stick clip when it's actually dangerous or when the first bolt is 20 ft up a 5.13 is different than grabbing the thing for EVERY damn first bolt one comes to even if it's ten feet up easy (for them) terrain over loose level sand.

What I caution against is getting so caught in the habit or script of grabbing the pole rather than evaluating yourself that day, the landing, the rock, first bolt height etc. Rock climbing is an exceedingly dangerous sport. Even sport climbing. The anchors at the top are probably more dangerous to us than the space below the first clip. In my opinion, that is a space where I should feel pretty comfortable and in control.

I don't know where y'all climb but I've been in many positions protected by bolts IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CLIMB where falling would be a very bad thing. The terrain may or may not be easier than the grade, but the risk is still high. Where's the stick clip?

Everyone is different and everyone is different everyday. People should listen to themselves. I do. I'm just saying that in my experience the climbing done far up can be just as risky and is usually more scary than the climbing done between the ground and the first clip. And by far up I include single pitch terrain.

Can we not pretend this is a safe activity please? You can minimize sprained ankles all you want, but there may be climbing up above that requires nerve, commitment and execution. Like I said, why not build that off the ground? Oh, I forgot, the guidebook author knows exactly how we're going to feel up there, or about the birds nest at the anchor jug.

I'm not talking about the Ashima or Sharma executing the hardest sport climbing on Earth. If they want that clip on their 5.impossible so that they can push the sport, good! I'm talking about regular climbers not knowing what they're made of, and the fact that clipping a first bolt doesn't make up for all the shifty belays I see, or biffing the anchors or a rappel or the endless other objective hazards present in our sport.

Stick clips do not a safe climber, make.

Rauzer wrote:Using a stick clip when it's actually dangerous or when the first bolt is 20 ft up a 5.13 is different than grabbing the thing for EVERY damn first bolt one comes to even if it's ten feet up easy (for them) terrain over loose level sand. What I caution against is getting so caught in the habit or script of grabbing the pole rather than evaluating yourself that day, the landing, the rock, first bolt height etc. Rock climbing is an exceedingly dangerous sport. Even sport climbing. The anchors at the top are probably more dangerous to us than the space below the first clip. In my opinion, that is a space where I should feel pretty comfortable and in control. I don't know where y'all climb but I've been in many positions protected by bolts IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CLIMB where falling would be a very bad thing. The terrain may or may not be easier than the grade, but the risk is still high. Where's the stick clip? Everyone is different and everyone is different everyday. People should listen to themselves. I do. I'm just saying that in my experience the climbing done far up can be just as risky and is usually more scary than the climbing done between the ground and the first clip. And by far up I include single pitch terrain. Can we not pretend this is a safe activity please? You can minimize sprained ankles all you want, but there may be climbing up above that requires nerve, commitment and execution. Like I said, why not build that off the ground? Oh, I forgot, the guidebook author knows exactly how we're going to feel up there, or about the birds nest at the anchor jug. I'm not talking about the Ashima or Sharma executing the hardest sport climbing on Earth. If they want that clip on their 5.impossible so that they can push the sport, good! I'm talking about regular climbers not knowing what they're made of, and the fact that clipping a first bolt doesn't make up for all the shifty belays I see, or biffing the anchors or a rappel or the endless other objective hazards present in our sport. Stick clips do not a safe climber, make.

Holy shit Hemingway. Approximately 0% of that is relevant. Of course it's not safe. Neither is walking your dog. Especially in Chicago. One side is saying: I choose to protect myself from groundfall when possible while sport climbing. That's it. Of course you can still pitch off wrong. Of course you can still get a shitty catch. The other side is saying: Stick clipping pussies! Back in my day, we broke our ankles on 5.10 and our dicks grew 2 inches because of it!

Congratulations on the most verbose straw man argument I've ever seen though. It would be impressive if it wasn't such an obvious fallacy.

Getting bored of this debate! I forget my stick clip 1/2 the time (the times I need it) and don't use it 3/4 the time I remember.... makes a good walking stick though.

don'tchuffonme wrote: Holy shit Hemingway. Approximately 0% of that is relevant. Of course it's not safe. Neither is walking your dog. Especially in Chicago. One side is saying: I choose to protect myself from groundfall when possible while sport climbing. That's it. Of course you can still pitch off wrong. Of course you can still get a shitty catch. The other side is saying: Stick clipping pussies! Back in my day, we broke our ankles on 5.10 and our dicks grew 2 inches because of it! Congratulations on the most verbose straw man argument I've ever seen though. It would be impressive if it wasn't such an obvious fallacy.

I'm sorry your mind can't handle anything beyond a simple dialectic. I was just sharing bub.

Rauzer: 1) "Everyone is different and everyone is different everyday. People should listen to themselves. I do."

2) "I'm just saying that in my experience the climbing done far up can be just as risky and is usually more scary than the climbing done between the ground and the first clip. And by far up I include single pitch terrain."

climbing friend,

1) just follow your heart, that's what I do.

2) Only if you are climbing 5.8

Y'all are so friendly.

Rauzer wrote:Y'all are so friendly.

No less friendly than you. This comment is as snide as anything else in this thread:

Rauzer wrote: I'm sorry your mind can't handle anything beyond a simple dialectic.

Sorry your mind uses adjectives where nouns should be.