Rapping of one bolt

Patrick Vernon wrote:Paul, the suggestion is to bring a second rope and leave it at the base. It is only the last rap that doesn't reach the ground. Really this is what she needs to do. I still can't shake the feeling that the OP is trolling us.

Oh! Not the base, the last rap anchor!!?

Patrick Vernon wrote:I still can't shake the feeling that the OP is trolling us.

Don't forget the huge 0.9 mile approach that is a part of all this.

Paul Hutton wrote:Climbers don't carry ropes in back packs, we attach them to the haul loop on the back of our harnesses. We use back packs for things like regular shoes, water, food. These things would be left on the ground if you stuffed a 60m+ rope in there. And you don't really need a second rope or tag line, if you're as novice a climber as you come off. Partner up with people that can haul in a (their) second rope. And get another bail biner or quick link. You don't seem to have the minimal gear necessary for a small multipitch adventure. Or do the walk off instead, if there is one. Or, you can affix a sling or cordalette through one or both of the bolts, you'll be leaving cheap scraps behind.

Oh fer god's sake. The second rope is staying on the ground and of course can be carried on the short approach in a backpack or in one of the coiled configurations. The first person is either lowered or does a single strand rappel from the last official rap station and whoever is left pulls up the second rope and the rest of the party rappels in the usual fashion. No raps off a single bolt and transferring from hanging on rappel to the bolt, no extra cord extensions and biner blocks, no Texas rope tricks or leaver biners or quicklinks or downclimbing the last fifteen feet. Jeez!

I've carried 60 pounds to and from the base of Washington Column, Boulder hopping and 4th class climbing, unprotected (we got off route on the APPROACH LOL). I've hiked 24 miles round trip, with enough gear for a bivy in a 2-man tent, and trad climbing a moderate Traverse in the Tuolumne back country, Mathis Crest. A 1 mile approach with sport and trad rack with belay station gear doesn't even register with me anymore.

Not to mention working as a medic with Marines.

Buck up, junior.

John Barritt wrote:I have a bet with some people this thing is going to hit six pages......JB

Ding! Double or nothing on 7 pages fools? JB

rgold wrote: Oh fer god's sake. The second rope is staying on the ground and of course can be carried on the short approach in a backpack or in one of the coiled configurations. The first person is either lowered or does a single strand rappel from the last official rap station and whoever is left pulls up the second rope and the rest of the party rappels in the usual fashion. No raps off a single bolt and transferring from hanging on rappel to the bolt, no extra cord extensions and biner blocks, no Texas rope tricks or leaver biners or quicklinks or downclimbing the last fifteen feet. Jeez!

I hate to be a pest but the point of the whole exercise was NOT to carry a second rope, or to buy a 70m rope. JB

Can somebody go over that Texas rope retrieval trick again?

rgold wrote: No raps off a single bolt and transferring from hanging on rappel to the bolt, no extra cord extensions and biner blocks, no Texas rope tricks or leaver biners or quicklinks or downclimbing the last fifteen feet. Jeez!

Alas many of the recently produced 3-year experts prefer playing with their gear more than climbing. If you keep it simple, what's the fun of lugging around noob-o-lettes and extra cordage and learning the Purcell prusik and creating masterbationpoints and multiple redirects and taking a huge risk by using sport draws on a trad route and putting stuff on a shelf all while being serene and laughing at stick clips and tourists?

John Barritt wrote:I hate to be a pest but the point of the whole exercise was NOT to carry a second rope, or to buy a 70m rope. JB

I have no problem with 7+ pages of gear wankery for short-rappel emergencies, but my point is that for this climb and this party the whole "exercise" embraces extra risks in order to avoid carrying a second rope less than a mile to the base of route. If that isn't practically the definition of faulty judgement, I don't know what is.

Patrick Vernon wrote:Can somebody go over that Texas rope retrieval trick again?

Sorry Patrick, you had your chance. That was a one-time, limited offer. :)

I have to ask, if the OP opts for a double rope rap, what is the best knott to use to join them together? Serious question.

rgold wrote: I have no problem with 7+ pages of . . . . wankery . . . . but my point is . . .If that isn't practically the definition of faulty judgement, I don't know what is.

Paul Hutton wrote:I've carried 60 pounds to and from the base of Washington Column, Boulder hopping and 4th class climbing, unprotected (we got off route on the APPROACH LOL). I've hiked 24 miles round trip, with enough gear for a bivy in a 2-man tent, and trad climbing a moderate Traverse in the Tuolumne back country, Mathis Crest. A 1 mile approach with sport and trad rack with belay station gear doesn't even register with me anymore. Not to mention working as a medic with Marines. Buck up, junior.

This also ranks right up there with proudly showing off poor judgement, in my superior opinion ', /;=}yGD!t

EDIT: Paul, I'm sorry if the snide flavor of my remark caught you, "Back Up Junior"?
to elaborate I need to know who your were addressing?
That my point went over your head only re-enforces my . . .(See here is where reading comprehension is valuable)"superior Opinion" that was a joke, son.
Weak sauce but it was for entertainment

OMG!
On to page 7, where we will catch up on the big e'ffin knot or the European death knot or the double fishermans or the Square two figure eights with ' BIGHTS': loops joined for easy overhanging raps.,.....

Patrick Vernon wrote:I have to ask, if the OP opts for a double rope rap, what is the best knott to use to join them together? Serious question.

From what I've read Overhand (European Death knot) with very long tails is the way to go. Apparently figure 8s look safter but roll more. Double fisherman is used too but really tough to untie. I personally prefer 1 single rope after reading this: rockandice.com/climbing-acc…

When I read "The two climbers heard screaming and a short time later saw Kautz crawling about 100 yards down the gully" crawling all broken and bloody, I got a pit my throat.

My question is, why did they untie the two ropes in between rappels? Is that standard procedure? I imagine when pulling the tied ropes to just keep using the tied ropes and not untie them until getting to the ground. Or just blaming faulty knot on the one who passed and can't defend himself.

Ana Tine wrote:Not much of a prediction at the bottom of page 5. cute piping up and not wanting to be a pest

I made the bet about the middle of page four......I announced it when I was about to win it (at the bottom of page 5) and they doubled down so a few more snippy posts and I'm in the chips. As for the "not being a pest" part I was politely trying to point out that Richard was about to re-argue that which was settled many posts ago, the second rope is "out of play" and we were about to cover how to use it again. I also respectfully submit that no one has suggested using that Texas rope trick to protect my suggested 15' 5.5 freesolo down climb. Have fun people, life is short. JB

Michael Schneider wrote: This also ranks right up there with proudly showing off poor judgement, in my superior opinion ', /;=}yGD!t EDIT: OMG! On to page 7, where we will catch up on the big e'ffin knot or the European death knot or the double fishermans or the Square two figure eights with ' BIGHTS': loops joined for easy overhanging raps.,.....

What? This was about carrying the necessary gear for any two of my aforesaid adventures, before leaving the ground and getting dangerous. What?

I'm trying to contribute to strengthening and educating the weeny's backbone and adding to the thrill of an, otherwise, dull life.

I'm proud that I'm strong enough to do so!

You don't laugh about fuck ups since your day 1?

Paul Hutton wrote: What? This was about carrying the necessary gear for any two of my aforesaid adventures, before leaving the ground and getting dangerous. What? I'm trying to contribute to strengthening and educating the weeny's backbone and adding to the thrill of an, otherwise, dull life. I'm proud that I'm strong enough to do so! You don't laugh about fuck ups since your day 1?

My early climbing days and the silly mistakes that could have kilt us/me
are so long ago I don't recall the few times that I did epic.
There were only a very few epics of the deadly kind anyway,

I have more tales of cross-loaded 'bieners, shralpped ropes and off route first ascents
than all night retreats or getting off route on walk offs & approaches.

Anyhow, thank you for serving !
And Marine! I mean that !

it is that - and not your participation in a recreational risky pass-time
That is a real.
Let's leave it then!
Thanx

(Let's get this to page 7)

I just followed the hyperlink to the route that has caused a disturbance in our peace.

5.4, with a down scramble. :/

Really? Rap rings aaaaall along the way.

Ana Tine wrote:I personally prefer 1 single rope after reading this: rockandice.com/climbing-acc…

Sometimes there is just not the option to use only one rope. Maybe even often? The likely basic lesson here is to know as much as you can about how you will get down after the climb - much as Anna Lou was doing when she started this thread. ... make sure you are comfortable with the descent beta before even starting up the climb.

Ana Tine wrote:My question is, why did they untie the two ropes in between rappels [in the Goat Wall fatality]? Is that standard procedure?

Here's an answer I gave elsewhere regarding the Goat Wall accident: There can be good reason to untie the ropes in the midst of a series of raps. And I believe there was indeed a very sound reason to do so on this route because there is about 150 feet of 2nd class to get down to the top of official Pitch 2. 2nd class rock is often referred to as "occasional use of hands on easy rock." Facing that stretch of 2nd class, I'd likely untie both ropes and individually coil them for two people to backpack carry during that scramble: more practical than keeping them knotted together for it.

Ana Tine wrote:I imagine when pulling the tied ropes to just keep using the tied ropes and not untie them until getting to the ground.

If the rap route is clean and each rap is a double-rope rap, what you are imagining is what most do with a normal double-rope raps: to not untie each time but just keep re-threading just before each pull. Can move long distances in a short amount of time. Among other things, be sure the ropes can't be dropped during each rope pull!

Michael Schneider wrote: This also ranks right up there with proudly showing off poor judgement, in my superior opinion ', /;=}yGD!t EDIT: Paul, I'm sorry if the snide flavor of my remark caught you, "Back Up Junior"? to elaborate I need to know who your were addressing? That my point went over your head only re-enforces my . . .(See here is where reading comprehension is valuable)"superior Opinion" that was a joke, son. Weak sauce but it was for entertainment OMG! On to page 7, where we will catch up on the big e'ffin knot or the European death knot or the double fishermans or the Square two figure eights with ' BIGHTS': loops joined for easy overhanging raps.,.....

No dad, I wasn't talking to you. You hadn't even submitted your first post yet LOL! I'm talking to anyone in question as to whether putting a rope on each climber and walking a mile is difficult or not.

I really like the idea of the Texas rope trick, but it lacks redundancy if rapping off of one bolt. That in mind I would suggest the "Texas Two Step" trick. It is essentially two texas rope tricks to separate bolts, here is a picture to clarify;

The thing I cant figure out is how to eliminate the need for a second ATC in this setup. It never hurts to bring a second ATC though. By my calculations the Texas Two Step Rope Trick tm. requires tripling the rope twice. A simple formula can be used to calculate the maximum length of rappel afforded by this trick; (length of rope/6) x0.314 (effectively pi) to account for some uncertainty in manufacturing length and distance between bolts. With a 60 meter rope roughly you should be able to rap 10 meters using this method and reach the ground without problems all while rapping off of two bolts instead of one.