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5.15 on gear?

Jon Rhoderick · · Redmond, OR · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 966
vimeo.com/73040942

There might be enough cracks in the Flatanger cave for a green pointed 5.15c.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Yes. I'd LOVE to see what happens when you whip on a cam placed in overhanging limestone.

Alex CV · · Greater NYC area · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 235
Daniel T wrote:Im newer to climbing and even newer to trad but to me it seems much more difficult once the line is actually found. In all of the Sharma and Ondra videos I've watched the draws are already placed on the bolts on these hard climbs. In most if not all of the trad videos I've seen the gear needs to be placed while they are climbing. I think if the gear can be pre-placed then heck yeah 5.15 trad can be done sooner than later. That being said I would really like to see sharma and ondra climb that hard while placing their draws. shoot I'm happy just climbing 5.4 and 5.5 right now. so maybe my vote doesn't count yet.
There are several things here of note:
1) It seems genuinely hard to find potential routes at those grades.
2) People accept that sending sport climbs assumes pre-placed draws and you clip-and-go. People used to make a distinction between redpoint and pinkpoint, but that is long gone for sport climbing.
3) Trad climbs are a bit different. Leading on pre-placed trad gear doesn't count as a redpoint. Although when Ron Kauk established Magic Line in Yosemite, I believe the gear was pre-placed and people didn't seem to care much.
4) Sharma onsighted 5.13 trad in Yosemite during his first outing there. Clearly he has the potential to climb harder trad routes if he had the desire.

- Alex
MP · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 2
Ted Pinson wrote:Yes. I'd LOVE to see what happens when you whip on a cam placed in overhanging limestone.
ask and you shall receive: arnoud petit climbing black bean on gear, 8b, ceuse france:

go to minute 10:20 to see the enormous whipper

youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh…
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Wow, that video is pretty amazing! Thanks for sharing. It kind of proves my point, though lol. Didn't see what he actually whipped on...was it a cam, or the handle he threaded? Either way, that is some tough limestone...would have definitely shattered any of the nasty choss we have here in the midwest. Also, the overhang is fairly gentle compared to the Flatanger cave...

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493
mpech wrote: ask and you shall receive: arnoud petit climbing black bean on gear, 8b, ceuse france: go to minute 10:20 to see the enormous whipper
At 8:17, does he have his runner strop/girth hitched to both cams' slings?
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Ted Pinson wrote:Yes. I'd LOVE to see what happens when you whip on a cam placed in overhanging limestone.
Err, you do know Flatanger is granite?
Harald Swen · · Oisterwijk · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0
Jim Titt wrote: Err, you do know Flatanger is granite?
Nope, it's gneiss. ;-)
JK- Branin · · NYC-ish · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 56
Mike Lane wrote:Also, don't underestimate the rarity of 5.15 lines period. Ondra had to work that cave in Norway. How hard was that to find? That we're talking limestone as the best opportunity for lines that hard you are really getting away from protectability.
I'm sure there are essentially infinite 5.15 lines out there. But why put in the time and effort to establish something on that level if it's not an aesthetic line on good rock? That narrows it down a lot I'd imagine.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252
Jim Titt wrote: Err, you do know Flatanger is granite?
Clearly, I don't. :p Had it confused with his other 5.15 projects which are normally limestone.

Haven't climbed on Gneiss before...how's the pro?
Pnelson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 635
Wilson On The Drums wrote:Are there any 5.15 sport routes that could be green-pointed like what was done with Black Bean?
Can we please take the term "green-point" out back behind the shed and shoot it?
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Ted Pinson wrote: Clearly, I don't. :p Had it confused with his other 5.15 projects which are normally limestone. Haven't climbed on Gneiss before...how's the pro?
There are so many different sorts of gneiss that it´s impossible to say, the granitic gneiss´s are usually good but it´s a long time since I climbed on any so how cams hold etc I´ve no idea.
Harald Swen · · Oisterwijk · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0
Ted Pinson wrote: Clearly, I don't. :p Had it confused with his other 5.15 projects which are normally limestone. Haven't climbed on Gneiss before...how's the pro?
I haven't climbed in Flatanger, but been to a dozen other areas in Norway. Pro tends to be good, as cracks in the rock have more irregularities then cracks in granite. More opportunities for placing nuts in stead of cams. On the other hand: Did climb a lot of routes on exfoliating domes which were hard to protect, or bolted.
Tradgic Yogurt · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2016 · Points: 55
Harald Swen wrote: Nope, it's gneiss. ;-)
Metamorphised granite may be gneiss, but the gear opportunities may not be.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

I see what you did there.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
cyclestupor wrote: So in your world, you aren't really climbing full on trad unless you have never been on the route before, or it's been so long that you forgot what gear you used? In my book, a climb is traditional as long as it is lead without any pre-placed protection on the route. If it takes you more than one try, and you have memorized the placements, then it's a redpoint. If someone told you where the placements are, but you have never climbed the route before, it's a flash. But it's still trad climbing.
But is it really? I could take spray paint and paint a circle around every single placement on the wall.

Isn't this kinda like sport climbing at that point? You are clipping into predetermined points exactly the same every time just like you were climbing sport.

The only real difference between it and sport at that point is the fact that the gear has a greater chance of still failing.

This still goes back to that post I saw about the guy who climbed some route I think in the 14s repeatedly on sport. He than went back after he has perfected the climb and cut the bolts so he could "trad lead it". Is it really trad lead if you spent months on bolts leaning the route and where to place gear than go back cut the bolts and lead it on your memorized (basically pre-placed) gear.

I am not saying it isn't still hard than climbing it pure sport but I think the traditional climbing is losing something here from doing it that way.

At some point you will never be able to trad climb a route that you can sport lead because at some point the climb has such difficult holds that nothing will be able to take a gear placement. You would just be free soloing at that point.
Pnelson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 635
Tradgic Yogurt wrote: Metamorphised granite may be gneiss, but the gear opportunities may not be.
Yeah, you can't take gneiss placements for granite; sometimes they can be complete schist.
Pnelson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 635
ViperScale wrote: But is it really? I could take spray paint and paint a circle around every single placement on the wall. Isn't this kinda like sport climbing at that point? You are clipping into predetermined points exactly the same every time just like you were climbing sport. The only real difference between it and sport at that point is the fact that the gear has a greater chance of still failing. This still goes back to that post I saw about the guy who climbed some route I think in the 14s repeatedly on sport. He than went back after he has perfected the climb and cut the bolts so he could "trad lead it". Is it really trad lead if you spent months on bolts leaning the route and where to place gear than go back cut the bolts and lead it on your memorized (basically pre-placed) gear. I am not saying it isn't still hard than climbing it pure sport but I think the traditional climbing is losing something here from doing it that way. At some point you will never be able to trad climb a route that you can sport lead because at some point the climb has such difficult holds that nothing will be able to take a gear placement. You would just be free soloing at that point.
Definitions change over time. "Moron," "gay," "square," or "trad," all of these words have had very different meanings through the last century. Words' meanings change by informal consensus and usage.*

"Trad" once meant "established ground-up, onsight," but now it has moved more toward meaning "climbing while placing gear on lead," although people pretty commonly clarify that runout bolted routes can be called "trad."

"Run-out" used to mean that the crux of a climb was dangerous, now "run-out" usually means any significant stretch with no gear, even if it's 5.8 moves on a 5.12 route. Similarly, "sport climbing" used to mean "climbing on a route that was rap-bolted," and there were plenty of early "sport" climbs that were established with very significant runouts on non-cruxy terrain. Now, we've pretty much moved toward assuming that "sport" climbs are bolted to be as safe as possible, with very close bolts regardless of how easy the terrain is.

  • except "greenpoint." Stop trying to make greenpoint happen. It's never going to happen.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

So, perhaps we are too focused on the current paradigm of 5.15s being long-term projects on pre-hung draws. Ondra and Megos have gotten pretty darned close to onsighting 5.15, and it is conceivable that this will happen. Once onsighting 5.15 is a thing, perhaps then 5.15 trad following trad ethos will be a thing as well?

khalifornia · · Colorado · Joined Nov 2015 · Points: 0

Guessing the rock at Flatanger takes some gear, based on this writeup....

mountainproject.com/v/the-t…

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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