Ettiquette on passing / allowing others to pass on multi-pitch climbs?

smurray47 wrote: I'm confused, do you not understand the concept of land/access management? The BLM, state/national parks offices, some crags are even managed through a local climbers coalition teamed up with a private landowner.

I think you are missing the point of those governing bodies.

As a child, I learned pretty quickly that if you ask permission, and you are told "NO", and then you do it anyway, the consequences are much worse than if you had just gone and done it without asking.

Also as a child, and perhaps more importantly, I learned that if you behave yourself and are very nice and charming you can often get away with many things that would otherwise not be tolerated.

Mike Brady wrote: I think you are missing the point of those governing bodies.

Lets say you asked to pass somebody and were declined, and then you subsequently tried to pass and caused an injury. If during investigation of the accident you then claimed that you were following proper climbing ethics and would continue to do exactly the same, you can be damn sure you won't be welcome back.

kenr wrote: Yes, in Europe lots of times the Leader of the lower party will come up to the bolt anchor and clip in -- about two seconds after your Leader departed to climb up your next pitch. Without apology ... "Hello nice day out here, isn't it?" The lower-party leader then builds his anchor around yours, then his partner(s) climb up -- and hopefully wait until you yourself depart before they come up to the anchor and clip into it.

I feel like that's pretty normal in the US. I do it and I'm not bothered when others do it coming up behind me. In my situation it was 2 groups of 3 climbers that came up behind us (each with one leader belaying 2 followers in guide mode) and both the leaders were leading the same pitch at the same time. They tried to link the first 2 pitches so they could pass us which resulted in them passing me at the top of the first pitch while my wife was on lead. They continued up pulling on her gear as well as clipping into it with their own draws. While the 2 leaders were quite fast the followers were total noobs so they never really succeeded in passing us. They were quite proud of themselves though and spent a lot of time taking pictures at the top with a flag.

I realize the danger of lightning storms in the afternoon and don't have problem passing when safety is an issue, but getting on a 4 pitch 5.6 at 8am isn't exactly extreme alpinism. There were also numerous empty routes on either side of somewhat similar difficulty.

EDIT: Based on the stories I had heard before going over there I was expecting crazy stuff, especially from guides in Chamonix, but this was really the only incident that I can complain about. Most climbers were pretty friendly and easygoing including the guides. Most of the climbers we ran into were visiting from other places in Europe, but these guys gave me a strong "I'm a local and we don't like visitors" kind of vibe so maybe that had something to do with it.

Bill Kirby wrote: Sorry to derail the thread but wait a minute.. so no one drives the speed limit in the left lane in Europe? They don't brake check you when you come up behind them at 75-80mph? You flash your lights and they get outta the way? Damn, if I wasn't such white trash I would retire there.

Are you really serious? My memory of German autobahns is that you won't be "coming up behind" too many vehicles at 75-80 mph, except maybe some older trucks. AIUI, cruising in the left lane in Germany will get you pulled over and hit with an on the spot fine. Other countries aren't quite as extreme, but in general left lane cruising is pretty heavily frowned upon in Europe.

Getting back to the thread topic, I'm just as happy to let faster parties pass on longer routes, climbing is much more pleasant without other parties nipping at my heels or sharing a crowded belay station, hanging or otherwise. It's not just bad weather that endangers a faster party when you hold them back. Dehydration, hunger, fatigue and just plain boredom can boost the chances of an accident, and crowded belay ledges are not safe.

mark felber wrote: Are you really serious? My memory of German autobahns is that you won't be "coming up behind" too many vehicles at 75-80 mph, except maybe some older trucks. AIUI, cruising in the left lane in Germany will get you pulled over and hit with an on the spot fine. Other countries aren't quite as extreme, but in general left lane cruising is pretty heavily frowned upon in Europe.

I interpreted Bill's post as being very obvious sarcasm mocking American drivers.

smurray47 wrote: I'm confused, do you not understand the concept of land/access management? The BLM, state/national parks offices, some crags are even managed through a local climbers coalition teamed up with a private landowner.

Oh, I'm quite aware of these organizations. The fact that you think they should give $200 fines for passing in a no passing zone and 2 points off their climbing license is laughable. Do you really think these organizations want to get involved in climbers' decisions and be legally responsible?

Nicholas Gillman wrote: So are you going to say "Hey guys strange question ... what time did you start this route ? I need to see if you're in the acceptable window to pass or not" And by the logic that you can want people to be more efficient , why couldn't someone just want you to get up earlier? Personally I don't care , if it's safe and you're not going to inconvience me at all it doesn't bother me if people want to pass. I was speaking to the OPs question on the consensus of the RR local community.

It's just common courtesy. It's kind of like the guy in the left lane doing 55 down the freeway and not moving over for anyone. Some people should just stick to the backroads.

will ar wrote: I interpreted Bill's post as being very obvious sarcasm mocking American drivers.

Thanks. It's good to hear somebody figured out my humor. Jeez..

Adventure Chumps wrote: It's just common courtesy. It's kind of like the guy in the left lane doing 55 down the freeway and not moving over for anyone. Some people should just stick to the backroads.

I didn't say it wasn't. It's nothing like that at all that's a terrible analogy.

I have to say I agree with Adventure Chumps on some of this...

If it's a classic and popular route with lots of vertical then completely refusing to let people pass is not just annoying but unsafe towards that faster party. If you want to climb alone in a multi-pitch destination then get off the beaten path. Classic routes are generally clean anyway, so falling rock is an insignificant excuse in the face of concerns like weather and nightfall.

Compare your speed on shorter routes to other parties. If you are on the slow side and still want to climb the classic then be OK with getting passed. I realize there is a grey area where people are pretty close together in ability and it might not make a difference in safety, that seems like a good place to ask permission and open a dialogue. It's the situations where there is an obvious discrepancy in speed and ability that are the concern, when some jerk with very limited knowledge and experience puts other people at risk because they insist on being in front of others. In cases like this it doesn't matter that you got up at 2am for a route most folks do in 4 hours, pull over and check your ego.

If you're taking over an hour for each free climbing pitch you need to practice on smaller and less popular routes before you get on 1000' or longer classics. If you're taking over 30 minutes per pitch on very popular and moderate climbs, especially longer routes with weather potential, then you need to let folks pass. By all means, discuss potential hazards and find a good spot to do it, but flat out refusal is crazy. Especially when a party is simuling or short fixing, or know the route/have their shiz super dialed and are clocking under 15 min/pitch, even if you're doing a pretty steady 30 min/pitch, you should let that party go. Just because you're too slow to make it up before the rain/dark/etc doesn't mean you need to hold others to the same epic time frame. Eat a snack, drink some water and watch what the other party does at their transitions, you'll probably be faster because of it. Heck, if it's really time sensitive they might even tag up a rope for you and save your butt.

Since we're talking about passing on routes... Let me just say that it's incredibly rude when a party requests to pass and you say "no" because there are already 10 parties on the routes and they're the last, but they still try to pass you on a pitch that has no variations, and then end up being slower than your party anyway.

I had this happen on Epinephrine. At one point there were literally four leaders on the first chimney pitch. It took us five hours to do the first three pitches because of the disrespectful passing party and other parties that probably had no business being on the route at all. Freaking circus. We teamed up ropes with another group and rapped off deciding that any route that we could actually climb without waiting would be more classic than "the best 5.9 in the US."

I guess I'm just saying that concerning passing, you have to have a clear idea of your pace and the pace of the other groups before making a decision. We did Purblind Pillar the next day and quickly passed a party of three who skunked us to the base, it was very amicable, hassle-free, and fast because of their willingness to take a 5-10 minute break while we stormed past.

smurray47 wrote: Lets say you asked to pass somebody and were declined, and then you subsequently tried to pass and caused an injury. If during investigation of the accident you then claimed that you were following proper climbing ethics and would continue to do exactly the same, you can be damn sure you won't be welcome back.

I fully understand what you are trying to convey. No need to keep trying to make your point. I just highly doubt that "The Man" is going to be able to enforce the way you think they do.

Nicholas Gillman wrote: I didn't say it wasn't. It's nothing like that at all that's a terrible analogy.

It's exactly like that. You keep saying the early bird gets the worm, but that's an antiquated thought process. That may have worked back in the 70's and 80's when there were a few climbers, but now there's 10 parties a day on some routes. Some of these noobs are sleeping at the bases of the routes, so does anyone who wants to be first have to sleep there too?

AC: "... so does anyone who wants to be first have to sleep there too?"

Yes - unless you can work something out that is agreeable to them. Or let them first get far enough up the route to not be caught as mentioned previously for the non- early risers who otherwise have their shit together.

Adventure Chumps wrote: It's exactly like that.

It's exactly like that in as far as both instances using the word pass lol

Adventure Chumps wrote: You keep saying the early bird gets the worm, but that's an antiquated thought process. That may have worked back in the 70's and 80's when there were a few climbers, but now there's 10 parties a day on some routes. Some of these noobs are sleeping at the bases of the routes, so does anyone who wants to be first have to sleep there too?

Why would getting up earlier to get on a route be more prevalent in a time when less climbers are around? Wouldn't you be less likely to have to pass people simply because the chances of there being people are less?

Yes if you want to be FIRST you either have to get up early (or at the very least earlier than other people climbing the route) or I suppose you could sleep at the base . I'm not really sure how you can be the first person somewhere without being the first person there maybe you can elaborate.

Adventure Chumps wrote: Some of these noobs are sleeping at the bases of the routes, so does anyone who wants to be first have to sleep there too?

No, you don't have to bivy to be first on the route - I have on more than one occasion hiked in to an alpine climb, arriving at the base right at dawn, and beat people onto the route who had bivied at the base but hadn't yet emerged from their sleeping bags.

You do, however, have to get there first to be first. Pretty simple.

Nicholas Gillman wrote: Yes if you want to be FIRST you either have to get up early (or at the very least earlier than other people climbing the route) or I suppose you could sleep at the base . I'm not really sure how you can be the first person somewhere without being the first person there maybe you can elaborate.

If I understand this correctly, it's not about being the first one the route. Rather, it's about not being stuck behind a party that's extraordinarily slow, especially if they aren't courteous and won't let you pass. The first come first serve mentality works well when all the parties are courteous, but as we know, a lot of people out there are real assholes. Hence, why the first come first serve system sucks at times.

youtu.be/pqXAsXiTXY0

Ultimately if you're courteous and respectful of other people's wishes, they'll likely let you pass. If they don't then you should have woken up earlier...

I've been passive aggressive in the past about passing thinking, "Don't these people know how fast I'm moving... Why won't they just let me pass?" and never saying anything to the party and this ended up just annoying them. Now I'm much more open and polite about it and if they are inclined to let me pass then great, if not... I should have gotten up earlier.