The deadly ATC
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I've been puzzled over the years about the lack of enthusiasm among the assisted-braking crowd for the CT Alpine Up. It handles intuitively, does most of what the other gadgets do, only better, and doesn't seem to be afflicted with the kinds of arcane gotcha's that characterize devices like the Grigri, Smart, and Jul that require you (at least some of the time) to disable braking in order to pump slack. |
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rgold wrote:Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.Very well put... |
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rgold wrote:I've been puzzled over the years about the lack of enthusiasm among the assisted-braking crowd for the CT Alpine Up. It handles intuitively, does most of what the other gadgets do, only better, and doesn't seem to be afflicted with the kinds of arcane gotcha's that characterize devices like the Grigri, Smart, and Jul that require you (at least some of the time) to disable braking in order to pump slack. The Up doesn't work well with thick fuzzy ropes and so isn't an option for many gyms and for some sport climbers; maybe that's part of the problem. But there is also the single-rope Click-up version (you lose the ability to rappel and use double rope systems) that I think tolerates rope thickness better.I'm not sure either, but here's my reasons though why it is not an all in one belay device for me. (A lot of this you probably already know, so forgive me if I'm telling you things you already know) When the Alpine Up is used in brake assisted mode with a single rope no matter the thickness, it will not lock up on a fall unless there is some resistance on the brake strand. I tested this in the gym over pads with several thicknesses of ropes with the same results. So for me with a single rope this rules it out as a good device to keep the climber on belay and held in place if the belayer for some reason is not able to hold the brake strand. I'm talking emergency situations here, not belaying incompetency. Perhaps the Click Up performs differently? But then you can't double strand rappel or top belay so it rules that out for outdoor climbing in anything but top roping and sport lead belaying where you don't need to rappel. I imagine with your half ropes this is not a problem. I did find on one double strand rappel where I came to a large ledge and had to walk sideways to the next rappel anchor, that upon opening the lock in the Alpine Up and putting tension on the rope by walking towards the next anchor that it went right back into lock mode without my hand holding intentional downward resistance on the brake strand. So it makes sense that it probably needs two strands of rope in it to go into brake assisted mode without holding the brake strand. The other piece of this is that it is the most complex belay device I own. It's not a big deal once you've read the manual and worked with it. But it's not something anyone is going to necessarily figure out without reading the manual anyways. (Which I never recommend) That being said, it is my favorite device for top belaying and rappelling. There is no other dual rope belay device out there that I'm aware of that can easily and gradually lower the second on top belay. Maybe with the possible exception of the DMM Pivot that I have not tried. And rappelling on it in brake assisted mode is wonderful and easy as long as you don't use it in facilitated mode where it twists the ropes unless the ends are free hanging. So it's kind of a niche device. If you want it to be an all in one device you need to be using half or twin ropes which I don't use yet. So for top rope or lead belaying I use a Mammut Alpine Smart Belay. |
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rgold wrote:I've been puzzled over the years about the lack of enthusiasm among the assisted-braking crowd for the CT Alpine Up. It handles intuitively, does most of what the other gadgets do, only better, and doesn't seem to be afflicted with the kinds of arcane gotcha's that characterize devices like the Grigri, Smart, and Jul that require you (at least some of the time) to disable braking in order to pump slack. The Up doesn't work well with thick fuzzy ropes and so isn't an option for many gyms and for some sport climbers; maybe that's part of the problem. But there is also the single-rope Click-up version (you lose the ability to rappel and use double rope systems) that I think tolerates rope thickness better.climbing friend, if your climbing friend bro at the gym and your 5.13 climbing friend at rifle does not utilize it, the others they will not utilize it. |
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rgold wrote:I've been puzzled over the years about the lack of enthusiasm among the assisted-braking crowd for the CT Alpine Up. It handles intuitively, does most of what the other gadgets do, only better, and doesn't seem to be afflicted with the kinds of arcane gotcha's that characterize devices like the Grigri, Smart, and Jul that require you (at least some of the time) to disable braking in order to pump slack. The Up doesn't work well with thick fuzzy ropes and so isn't an option for many gyms and for some sport climbers; maybe that's part of the problem. But there is also the single-rope Click-up version (you lose the ability to rappel and use double rope systems) that I think tolerates rope thickness better.The problems are;- It is large, relatively heavy, expensive and tries to do too many things at once. The instructions are like a comic version of War and Peace in their length and complexity. It fails to do most things better than a judicious selection of other devices do and the only area it stands out over other devices is the effectiveness of the assisted braking with twin/double ropes IF that is a requirement. Mine stays at home along with the other "wierd" devices. It´s unnatractiveness stems from attempting to do everything and mostly doing nothing paticularly well. |
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Haha, there we have the opposite point of view folks, from someone who's actually tested a lot of belay devices! |
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Ranivorous Troglodyte wrote:Interesting. I don't know what's up with the jul 2 (never tried it) but using the mega jul hundreds of times it locks every time for me. Mostly 10.2mm rope. But many times on 9.8mm and never had any locking problems.To be super clear, I tested with no tension on the brake strand, similar to how Wild Country has been demo-ing the Revo. Holding the brake strand like a responsible person, all of these devices lock every time. I tested each device about 5 times so you can interpret "60%" as "3 out of 5". I agree that making a strong claim would require a larger sample size, as well as a more controlled methodology. |
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With two ropes in the device, there is this test... |
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rgold wrote:With two ropes in the device, there is this test...Yes, I've seen that video and it seems to support my hypothesis that it requires two ropes to lock up without a hand on the brake line. One rope it just doesn't work. I did multiple falls in the gym over a pad with different diameter single ropes and it never locked. |
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Say what you want about belay devices, but I'll never get rid of my PAS thong! |
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I think that answers your question, Rich. Most American climbers do not use twins, so a device that requires 2 ropes to lock would not be very useful. |
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Ted Pinson wrote:I think that answers your question, Rich. Most American climbers do not use twins, so a device that requires 2 ropes to lock would not be very useful.I think Jim came closer perhaps. And saying the Alpine Up "needs two ropes to lock" would be a gross misrepresentation, because it leaves out the "completely untended" part. I've used it on halfs and singles (I don't own twins) and it always locks solidly as long as the brake strand is (very lightly) gripped. I wonder how many of the assisted braking devices that can take two ropes could pass the untended two-rope test...I think one of the Juls failed embarrassingly at one of the trade fairs, for example. |
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rgold wrote: I think Jim came closer perhaps. And saying the Alpine Up "needs two ropes to lock" would be a gross misrepresentation, because it leaves out the "completely untended" part. I've used it on halfs and singles (I don't own twins) and it always locks solidly as long as the brake strand is (very lightly) gripped. I wonder how many of the assisted braking devices that can take two ropes could pass the untended two-rope test...I think one of the Juls failed embarrassingly at one of the trade fairs, for example.You are of course correct. There is some misinterpretation here. The informal testing I did was to see if the Alpine Up and other devices would lock without a hand on the brake line and I only had single ropes of different diameters to test this. For my purposes, I want a belay device that will hold me if the belayer has some sort of accident and can't hold onto the brake line. So to be extra clear for other users, the Alpine Up does indeed lock with a single rope as long as their is a hand on the brake line. And like you mentioned, it doesn't take much brake hand resistance to do so but it must be there. Unfortunately this does not serve my purposes for outdoor climbing on a single rope. Other devices that I did test in this same fashion with single ropes did pass by locking and holding without a hand on the brake line. That was the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay, Petzl Grigri, and Edelrid Megajul. I'd also say that I humbly disagree with Jim Tit that the Alpine Up fails to do anything better than other devices. I believe it lowers on top belay better than any other dual rope device. And it can be done gradually and easily without a backup safely (assuming single, half, or twin ropes with only one follower). And this is part of how they advertise the device. Whether that one feature is worth it for someone is for them to figure out. I also think it rappels as good as the Alpine Smart Belay in brake assisted mode. |
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anotherclimber wrote: I'd also say that I humbly disagree with Jim Tit that the Alpine Up fails to do anything better than other devices. I believe it lowers on top belay better than any other dual rope device. And it can be done gradually and easily without a backup safely (assuming single, half, or twin ropes with only one follower). And this is part of how they advertise the device. Whether that one feature is worth it for someone is for them to figure out. I also think it rappels as good as the Alpine Smart Belay in brake assisted mode.This is in fact so, with two ropes it lowers better than any modern device when use in guide mode. That the guide mode itself sucks is another matter! |
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Jim Titt wrote: This is in fact so, with two ropes it lowers better than any modern device when use in guide mode. That the guide mode itself sucks is another matter!What is it about the guide mode you don't like? |
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For the 1% of US climbers that use half ropes, I'll just chime in (as I have before) that the CT Alpine Up is the best of the available belay devices, and significantly so. |
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The video test I posted has the Alpine Up on a sling and the device accelerates upwards when the fall happens and then rapidly decelerates when the sling goes taught---nothing like this occurs in a belayed fall scenario even if the belayer is lifted. |
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anotherclimber wrote: I'd also say that I humbly disagree with Jim Tit that the Alpine Up fails to do anything better than other devices. I believe it lowers on top belay better than any other dual rope device. And it can be done gradually and easily without a backup safely (assuming single, half, or twin ropes with only one follower). And this is part of how they advertise the device. Whether that one feature is worth it for someone is for them to figure out. I also think it rappels as good as the Alpine Smart Belay in brake assisted mode.agreed. It does two thing better than any other device (except maybe the revo when it comes out): 1 It never locks up paying out slack, even at high speeds. It takes a certain amount of weight to pull the biner into the slot where it locks. This weight threshold isn't achievable while paying slack to the leader, even if you're tugging really hard. 2 Rapping in autolock mode is much smoother than the alpine smart because you have better leverage. I haven't used it in guide mode or dynamic mode yet so I can speak to how it performs in that respect. As far as it not locking unattended, an unconscious belayer is something I try to avoid regardless of what belay device they're using. I'm willing to accept that if shit hits the fan that bad there's a chance I won't make it. I'm sure that when I eventually learn how to use doubles I will love the alpine up even more. |
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I love the alpine up. I have been using mine for almost 5 years mostly with single ropes (mammut 8.9 serenity and edelrid 9.5) and some with double/twin ropes in the 8.2mm range. |