4mm accessory cord for replacement sling--am I going to die?

anotherclimber wrote: No problem. It's a choice you make and nothing wrong with that just as long as you know how to tie the knot properly and what to look for when inspecting it.

anotherclimber wrote: For myself, the last thing I want to be doing when placing a piece of rock pro is having to do one more thing and be worried about inspecting a knot.

Agreed...I just meant that in the process of placing it and clipping the rope, I would inevitably be looking at the knot and would notice if it was loose. Also I would be checking it as I'm clipping it to my harness.

anotherclimber wrote: Although I wonder if setting the Tricam counts as a load and unload cycle?

damn, man...how hard do you set your tricams??? LOL

anotherclimber wrote: Oddly enough I looked into this a while back. Nobody that I could find re-slings them in the new rigid style sling. It's like they don't think it is worth it. This is a huge improvement even if people have found different ways to stiffen up the sling prior to this re-design by Camp. I also found that it was not worth it monetarily wise to send only one Tricam out to be re-slung. In that situation it costs almost the same to buy a new one on sale. I don't have any experience with sewing to help you with your theory.

For one thing, they are likely much more expensive to produce than simple sewn nylon with some bartacking by tricam head.

My experience with the stiff EVO's is they're a joy to place, but if I don't extend my runner on every placement they often get jostled out by rope drag. Even with the runner extended, if the route above the placement wanders and the rope traverses across the piece, it can catch the sling (really it's more of a dogbone than a sling) and knock the tricam out of the placement (especially in horizontals, where I use them the most).

ebmudder wrote: Agreed...I just meant that in the process of placing it and clipping the rope, I would inevitably be looking at the knot and would notice if it was loose. Also I would be checking it as I'm clipping it to my harness.

Ok, that's cool. Perhaps this was a unintended miscommunication on your part so forgive me if you already know this... I just want to make sure for your own safety that you understand that the failure mode of the water knot that I'm talking about is not it coming loose, although I suppose that is possible if you didn't weight the knot and sling after tying it. If you read the link I gave you under the results section, Tom talks about the one of the tails gradually slipping through the knot until it slips out of it completely. So you have to check that both tails are of sufficient length.

ebmudder wrote:damn, man...how hard do you set your tricams??? LOL My experience with the stiff EVO's is they're a joy to place, but if I don't extend my runner on every placement they often get jostled out by rope drag. Even with the runner extended, if the route above the placement wanders and the rope traverses across the piece, it can catch the sling (really it's more of a dogbone than a sling) and knock the tricam out of the placement (especially in horizontals, where I use them the most)

LOL Thanks for the laugh. In their cammed mode, as hard as I can. And for exactly the reason that you mentioned extending them. Which is perhaps why I haven't had any problem with tricams rattling loose. Although they always have an alpine draw tripled or extended on them.

Maybe this would be a good queue for you to do the same if you find them rattling loose often?

I do this because in my own ground placement practice my observation is that they are weak to being jarred loose, walk into a marginal placement, or entirely dislodged from being pulled sideways, or even just normal rope movement because of the stiffened slings if you didn't set it hard enough or if your route wanders a bit and the extension is not enough. Which I can certainly see would be an advantage to not having a stiffened sling on them. It's almost the same argument of wired versus slung hexes that I've talked about before.

ebmudder wrote:For one thing, they are likely much more expensive to produce than simple sewn nylon with some bartacking by tricam head.

Yes probably more expensive with a third more sling and likely three times as much stitching. I wouldn't call that incredibly more expensive, but a bit. I think it is more resistance to change how they re-sling them and re-training employees or re-programming the machines that do the stitching if they are computerized. But that is pure speculation on my part.

anotherclimber wrote: Ok, that's cool. Perhaps this was a unintended miscommunication on your part so forgive me if you already know this... I just want to make sure for your own safety that you understand that the failure mode of the water knot that I'm talking about is not it coming loose, although I suppose that is possible if you didn't weight the knot and sling after tying it. If you read the link I gave you under the results section, Tom talks about the one of the tails gradually slipping through the knot until it slips out of it completely. So you have to check that both tails are of sufficient length.

Thanks for double-checking that I'm not completely missing the point! The short-tail failure mode is worth repeating, as it applies to more than water knots, but yes I'm aware that you need to ensure the tail's long enough to not pull through the knot (if you look at my picture above you'll see I err on the side of caution in this regard).

anotherclimber wrote: LOL Thanks for the laugh. In their cammed mode, as hard as I can. And for exactly the reason that you mentioned extending them. Which is perhaps why I haven't had any problem with tricams rattling loose. Although they always have an alpine draw tripled or extended on them. Maybe this would be a good queue for you to do the same if you find them rattling loose often? I do this because in my own ground placement practice my observation is that they are weak to being jarred loose, walk into a marginal placement, or entirely dislodged from being pulled sideways, or even just normal rope movement because of the stiffened slings if you didn't set it hard enough or if your route wanders a bit and the extension is not enough. Which I can certainly see would be an advantage to not having a stiffened sling on them. It's almost the same argument of wired versus slung hexes that I've talked about before.

You're right...I'm probably not setting them hard enough, although in inward-flaring cracks it's hard to get them to set hard, even though they are bomber for this purpose (unless you bang around on the dyneema versions).

anotherclimber wrote: Yes probably more expensive with a third more sling and likely three times as much stitching. I wouldn't call that incredibly more expensive, but a bit. I think it is more resistance to change how they re-sling them and re-training employees or re-programming the machines that do the stitching if they are computerized. But that is pure speculation on my part.

I think it's likely the stitching machines aren't set up for that kind of product, and the reject rate is much higher when so much precision stitching/bartacking is required for each sling...probably not worth it for the trickle of tricams coming in to these guys. I received an email from Yates a couple years ago explaining why they stopped reslinging tricams (it had something to do with it being problematic on their equipment I think, or they didn't stock the right materials), but I can't find it. Anyway I will just have to wait until I have a bunch to resling and send them out to MtnTools.

ebmudder wrote: Thanks for double-checking that I'm not completely missing the point! The short-tail failure mode is worth repeating, as it applies to more than water knots, but yes I'm aware that you need to ensure the tail's long enough to not pull through the knot (if you look at my picture above you'll see I err on the side of caution in this regard).

No problem! Safety first. :)

ebmudder wrote: You're right...I'm probably not setting them hard enough, although in inward-flaring cracks it's hard to get them to set hard, even though they are bomber for this purpose (unless you bang around on the dyneema versions).

Yup, set them harder in active cam mode is the way to go. Just make sure you and your second is practiced in how to easily and quickly remove them.

Are you using them in passive chock mode in this scenario and experimenting with the fulcrum up or down to see what sets the best? You should be able to set them hard that way although I've never used them in that capacity to verify. Normally I use a Wild Country Rockcentric hex for inward flaring cracks. In addition, good hexes are stable and solid from sideways pulls.

ebmudder wrote:I think it's likely the stitching machines aren't set up for that kind of product, and the reject rate is much higher when so much precision stitching/bartacking is required for each sling...probably not worth it for the trickle of tricams coming in to these guys. I received an email from Yates a couple years ago explaining why they stopped reslinging tricams (it had something to do with it being problematic on their equipment I think, or they didn't stock the right materials), but I can't find it. Anyway I will just have to wait until I have a bunch to resling and send them out to MtnTools.

This certainly makes sense. Thank you for mentioning this.

Tricams are what...$20?

Ted Pinson wrote:Tricams are what...$20?

Hi Ted: did you read my OP? That was my point to begin with. I can buy a new one for around the same price it would cost to resling it, unless I re-slung it myself. This tricam is perfectly good except for the sling, so rather than throw it away I'd like to keep it for a double.

If I can make it useable for $1, I'd rather do that, even temporarily, as long as it's safe and workable.

chris magness wrote:And now I'm going to hijack your thread: what's up with "I'm gonna die," or "yer gonna" die lingo that's become popular in forums? Stop it. Why even joke about this?

Always saw "yer gonna die" as similar to how actors are told to "break a leg" before going on stage.

ebmudder wrote: This tricam is perfectly good except for the sling, so rather than throw it away I'd like to keep it for a double. If I can make it useable for $1, I'd rather do that, even temporarily, as long as it's safe and workable.

Yeah, but you really went off the rails over thinking it. Just thread some webbing that fits, tie a water knot in it, bounce-tighten it, and be done. At one time, no nuts were pre-slung other than the smaller ones on wires; they were all threaded with webbing or accessory cord, knotted, and tightened. No stitching, no freaking out over tails, no constant inspection, no worry about stiffening (really, most tri-cam placements require two hands), and all that other stuff you got mired in for the past page or two.

Marc801 wrote: Yeah, but you really went off the rails over thinking it. Just thread some webbing that fits, tie a water knot in it, bounce-tighten it, and be done. At one time, no nuts were pre-slung other than the smaller ones on wires; they were all threaded with webbing or accessory cord, knotted, and tightened. No stitching, no freaking out over tails, no constant inspection, no worry about stiffening (really, most tri-cam placements require two hands), and all that other stuff you got mired in for the past page or two.

LOL...yeah I sure did! It never hurts to ask, but in this case "simple is better".

caughtinside wrote:What a special thread. Just use a shoelace then let the world know you bootied a tricam.

Thanks caughtinside, but I'm not sure if that would work...the breaking strength of a typical shoelace is only 0.2 kN, so I'd have to make too many wraps for it to work properly...but I appreciate your contribution!

Someone else recommended 1/2" webbing...I looked around online and couldn't find any 1/2" webbing with a breaking strength of more than 4.8 kN, so I'm not sure if that would be suitable in a lead-fall scenario...although knotted in a loop it might be closer to 10 kN?

According to Camp's page the breaking strength of the #2 tricam with nylon sling is 14 kN.

ebmudder wrote: Thanks caughtinside, but I'm not sure if that would work...the breaking strength of a typical shoelace is only 0.2 kN, so I'd have to make too many wraps for it to work properly...but I appreciate your contribution! Someone else recommended 1/2" webbing...I looked around online and couldn't find any 1/2" webbing with a breaking strength of more than 4.8 kN, so I'm not sure if that would be suitable in a lead-fall scenario...although knotted in a loop it might be closer to 10 kN? According to Camp's page the breaking strength of the #2 tricam with nylon sling is 14 kN.

Earlier this year I bought some sewn short slings from Misty Mtn. They are 9/16" tubular webbing (that'll fit your #2 Tricam, since it fits my 1.5 brown Tricam) and are rated at 22 kN loop strength. You could do one of two things: cut the splice out and tie a water knot. That will result in a loop strength closer to 10-12 kN. Or - and this is clearly NOT recommended by ANYONE - gently tap the steel pin most of the way out of the Tricam, slip the sling in there, and gently drive the pin back in. Now, I have been told in clear terms that this is a bad idea, and that when Tricams treated this way are pull tested, they break at the eye. The implication being that movement of the pin somehow compromises the piece. But, at least in the smallest 3 or 4 sizes, that's where they break even in their stock form, so maybe just maybe that's their weak point in any event. You get to decide.

Gunkiemike wrote: Earlier this year I bought some sewn short slings from Misty Mtn. They are 9/16" tubular webbing (that'll fit your #2 Tricam, since it fits my 1.5 brown Tricam) and are rated at 22 kN loop strength. You could do one of two things: cut the splice out and tie a water knot. That will result in a loop strength closer to 10-12 kN. Or - and this is clearly NOT recommended by ANYONE - gently tap the steel pin most of the way out of the Tricam, slip the sling in there, and gently drive the pin back in. Now, I have been told in clear terms that this is a bad idea, and that when Tricams treated this way are pull tested, they break at the eye. The implication being that movement of the pin somehow compromises the piece. But, at least in the smallest 3 or 4 sizes, that's where they break even in their stock form, so maybe just maybe that's their weak point in any event. You get to decide.

Thanks gunkie...I guess I can buy 3' of 1/2" or 9/16" webbing and live with the water knot rather than potentially causing the tricam to catastrophically fail!

Eventually i'll just get them all re-slung professionally.

cacciaequipment.com/resling…

These guys resling tri-cams and they appear to be the closest to CAMP's stitching job.

eli poss wrote:http://www.cacciaequipment.com/resling-service.html These guys resling tri-cams and they appear to be the closest to CAMP's stitching job.

cool beans, thanks for that link!

eli poss wrote:http://www.cacciaequipment.com/resling-service.html These guys resling tri-cams and they appear to be the closest to CAMP's stitching job.

Tricams that Caccia reslung for me last year:

reslung red Tricams. Nice work by Caccia Eqpt.