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60' Ground fall belayer drop

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
T Roper wrote: Ok but in this case (as presented by the OP and the basis of the thread) I would go with a grigri every single time. Wouldnt you?
Possibly, but handing him a GriGri fixes one issue only to create another. It doesent solve the underlying problem, and if your partner cannot be trusted to use the ATC then he should not be trusted to use the GriGri either.

This incident speaks to a larger holistic issue, which is a complete lack of formal training for many newcomers. All too often I see new climbers show up at the crag and the only training they get is 30 seconds on the ground. Then their partner climbs to the top of some 5.8 on TR and the very first time the belayer receives any actual experience is when the climber is 70' up and ready to be lowered. Of course there is no one standing by to help the new belayer either. The general lackadaisical and informal so-called "training" indoctrination that many new climbers receive is a joke at best, and even with some experience a lack of legitimate training early on can directly cause incidences like we see here later on in their climbing career.

There is still significant value in hiring a guide (not a gym employee, an actual rock guide) to teach newcomers the basics of climbing. The mindset that can be planted by formal, professional training can go a very long way in ensuring safety, even years later when the newcomer becomes experienced enough to become the instructor. Ultimately, blindly exchanging belay devices in an attempt to improve safety is silly at best. It's that exact mindset that contributes to the dozens of "I got dropped on a GriGri" threads. "Oh, you're new, just use the GriGri, that will fix everything."
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10

Wait. Let me make sure i understand the tone of this thread.

Dumbass goes climbing with someone he's never met before. He's new to trad so he decides to go to the chossiest cliff he can find. Pulls off a hold and of all the choices of directions to throw it, he throws it directly at his belayer, who by the way is not wearing his helmet. He just happens to be belaying with an ATC.

And the community reaction is: Instead of blaming dumb and dumber, we should all start gri-gris?, because they are so fool proof.

People have been using ATCs safely for years. It's the person not the equipment. Idiots will find a way to screw up anything. I see people all the time at the gym lead belaying with a grigri and they never take their thumb off the cam until its time to lower the climber. The one lady I watched didn't even touch the brake strand until she went to lower her partner. She probably even thought or maybe some gym employee had told her that a grigri was obviously a safer choice.

Moral of the story - don't climb with stupid people...

Nyte Knight · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 10
Em Cos wrote: A concussion is a mTBI, mild traumatic brain injury. They are basically synonyms, with TBI being the more modern term. If you have a TBI, you have a concussion (or worse). You are implying that the only possible motivation to choose to use an ATC is cost savings; that isn't the case. They are two very different devices, each with pros and cons, cost being only one of them. (not at all sure what you mean by "and a trip to your pack"? Curious though...)


In education terms, as qualifying someone for special education services, TBI is used to designate permanent brain injury that affects a child's daily living. Most kids we see with TBI qualifications are the result of car crashes with the occasional skateboard or bike accident (always without helmets). The real sad ones are the K level students that have TBI as a result of shaken baby syndrome.

Sorry, SPED teacher here. Thankfully I've only see two cases of TBI in my 10 years of teacher...one a result of a serious and fatal car accident and the other from a skateboard accident.

And concussions and post-conscussive syndrome SUCK! After I fell on ice, I was out of week of work and had a month of memory/concentration fog.

So what I'm taking out of this thread it:
1) Belayers need helmets just as much as the climber does
2) As a climber, don't throw a rock at your belayer
3) As a belayer, never let go of the rope and move out of the way of the rock being thrown at you.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252
T Roper wrote: Ted Ted Ted... You should have some real life experience using a grigri before commenting on one dont you think?
What is that supposed to mean? I climb with a Grigri 3-4 times a week and have been doing so for around 4 years. I have not, however, ever let go of the break hand using any device, nor deemed it worth my partners' safety to try.

As far as the tone of the thread, I find it interesting that people are quicker to blame the device in a Grigri accident thread compared to an ATC. Obviously, the belayer, not the device is at fault in both scenarios, yet this appears to be easier to grasp when the incompetent person is using a plate (Aleks being the obvious exception).
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252
Stagg54 wrote: The one lady I watched didn't even touch the brake strand until she went to lower her partner. She probably even thought or maybe some gym employee had told her that a grigri was obviously a safer choice.
WOW.
sherb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 60
20 kN wrote: Climbers have been successfully belaying with the ATC for nearly 50 years. Tens of millions of lead falls have been caught on the ATC by millions of climbers without issue. As has been said several times, it's the belayer that matters. I can catch a whipper on any device on the market and I can drop you on any device on the market. Some devices have advantages over others, but in untrained hands ALL belay devices are unsafe. An experienced climber with an ATC is infinitely safer than an inexperienced one with a GriGri.
I dislike complacency that people have developed... these people seem to want to climb because they think it makes them cool but don't care one iota about how the physics of belaying works, or about safety.

I've seen numerous people who think they look casual doing a "no hands" take on Grigris... both males and females -e.g. no hands on the brake strand. These people have two hands, and they are stuck in the general area... what else do they have to do with their hands? How much harder is it to put it on the brake strands rather than their pockets? Then, sometimes these people pull down on the climber side in a fall, which works against the Gri gri cam mechanism. These people give Grigri users a bad name! (And make people like Healyje dislike GriGris)

I can't give much more credit to some of the ATC users either... I have seen people take both hands off the brake strand in an ATC! As if, by merely going thru the mechanism it will arrest a fall, which is untrue. It only offers a mechanical advantage when the belayer pulls down on the brake side. Or, they also pull down on the climber side in a fall, where there is no mechanical advantage.

I never have the guts to say anything because I don't look intimidating. I just wonder if their climber knows what's going on.

Personally I've preferred to belay with a Grigri since I climbed with a girl who takes multiple whippers in a row after clipping the first bolt. The webbing of my thumb would get sucked into the ATC and even though I never let go, it really hurt till she got back onto the rock. Easier to belay people who are projecting also. Lastly, I had a climbing partner who outweighed me by 90lbs and when he fell I got pulled to the first bolt, where the GriGri stopped his progression downwards (I slowed him down, but he still went down). With an ATC, the rope could have kept slipping, or I could have dropped it (although I would do everything I could not to). Unlike other light belayer/heavy climber teams, I insist my climber clips the first bolt and not skip it. That way I can get stopped by the 1st bolt by the gri... if I were pulled up to the 2nd, then the climber has to be much higher before he can fall without hitting the ground (even if it is a slowed groundfall).

Only tougher part is lowering a heavy climber on a thin strand, because on one strand vs two, my hands burned a bit letting that 205lb guy down on a 9.2mm. Feeding is not a problem, I basically mimic the climber motion (when I can see them) like virtual reality.

I use an ATC when requested such as when belaying a climber on a multipitch when I won't be able to see/hear them, because when they pull up the rope really fast (my signal they are at the belay ledge), sometimes they pull the grigri out of my hand after I disconnect it from my harness and it gets lodged in the first piece. Usually when on gear.

I prefer being belayed with a grigri also, I like that I don't have to rely 100% on humans; the risk can be mitigated. When relying on humans there is human error (carelessness, negligence), human accidents (rockfall, seizure, bees, unconsciousness) and this risk can be shared with a device, as long as the human doesn't decide to put the entire burden on the device.
Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Ted Pinson wrote: WOW.

I was surprised that she knew enough to put a hand on the brake strand when lowering. I was kinda waiting for her to just open up the handle wide when the climber got to the top and drop her the whole way...

Grigris definitely have their place and can be useful, but I never let anyone lead belay me with one (unless I'm aid climbing). I've seen way too many people do it incorrectly and I don't want to have to worry about that when I am leading.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Yeah, that's pretty extreme. Was this outdoors, or in a gym?

I don't know if that's a good policy. My experience is that, trad climbers aside, most ATC users follow a reverse bell curve of experience. Either they're experienced and prefer using an ATC for whatever reason, or are brand spanking new and bought an ATC because it was cheap and/or came with their "startup package." You then run the risk of having an inexperienced belayer, used to using Grigris in a gym, belaying you with an ATC that they haven't used much before. Exhibit A: this thread.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
Ted Pinson wrote:Yeah, that's pretty extreme. Was this outdoors, or in a gym? I don't know if that's a good policy. My experience is that, trad climbers aside, most ATC users follow a reverse bell curve of experience. Either they're experienced and prefer using an ATC for whatever reason, or are brand spanking new and bought an ATC because it was cheap and/or came with their "startup package." You then run the risk of having an inexperienced belayer, used to using Grigris in a gym, belaying you with an ATC that they haven't used much before. Exhibit A: this thread.
Yeah, maybe I'm a snob, but I try to avoid letting those people belay me.

If I do end up in that situation, sometimes I'll climb something really easy where I know I'm not going to fall and then I'll downclimb. That way I'm never really relying on them.

And it was in the gym.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Nyte Knight wrote: In education terms, as qualifying someone for special education services, TBI is used to designate permanent brain injury that affects a child's daily living. Most kids we see with TBI qualifications are the result of car crashes with the occasional skateboard or bike accident (always without helmets). The real sad ones are the K level students that have TBI as a result of shaken baby syndrome. Sorry, SPED teacher here. Thankfully I've only see two cases of TBI in my 10 years of teacher...one a result of a serious and fatal car accident and the other from a skateboard accident.
I think the key here is "in education terms, as qualifying someone for special education services". It sounds like in your line of work you deal with specific types of TBIs.

But TBI is actually a very general term. Traumatic Brain Injury, as in anything that hurts your brain and is caused by trauma, (which is basically anything non-medical - as in rock hitting head = trauma, brain tumor = medical)

Traumatic brain injuries can be mild or severe, can heal quickly or slowly or never. They can cause any or many of a wide range of symptoms. The kids you see with permanent damage from car crashes have TBIs. A mild concussion is also a TBI. It's a very general term that covers a wide range of types and severities of injuries.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

It's a brave new world out there and grigris - as a panacea or vaccine against inexperience, incompetence and random rockfall - likely contribute to at least as many or more drops than they prevent. And if you're depending on a device to save you from a bad belayer you've already made at least two bad decisions.

r m · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 0
Healyje wrote:...likely contribute to at least as many or more drops than they prevent...
Not to pick on specifically you but...Is there any data to support that?

(A bit of a google only revealed nothing very useful, there's the DAV 2012 study that found munter hitch belayers make the most mistakes, followed by ATCs. Though that's measuring belay mistakes, not actual drops.

And a 2014 DAV 'publication' Fight the iceberg! Accidents at artificial climbing facilities. stating:
...around 70 percent of the accidents happen using the ATC, although only 60 percent of the climbers belay using the ATC (information of 2012).
Though doesn't mention how the grigri compares.)
Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
Mark Hudon wrote: There were no belay devices in the 1950s.
Correct ..That JQ guy often proves he is a real thicky.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Ted Pinson wrote: What is that supposed to mean? I climb with a Grigri 3-4 times a week and have been doing so for around 4 years. I have not, however, ever let go of the break hand using any device, nor deemed it worth my partners' safety to try. As far as the tone of the thread, I find it interesting that people are quicker to blame the device in a Grigri accident thread compared to an ATC. Obviously, the belayer, not the device is at fault in both scenarios, yet this appears to be easier to grasp when the incompetent person is using a plate (Aleks being the obvious exception).
Ted, you basically admitted you dont use the device with lead climbing and doubted it could hold which is comically wrong. Oh and my experience with the tool is only 15 or so years(lead mostly) and a hundreds, maybe over a thousand of lead catches.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
20 kN wrote: Possibly, but handing him a GriGri fixes one issue only to create another. It doesent solve the underlying problem, and if your partner cannot be trusted to use the ATC then he should not be trusted to use the GriGri either. This incident speaks to a larger holistic issue, which is a complete lack of formal training for many newcomers. All too often I see new climbers show up at the crag and the only training they get is 30 seconds on the ground. Then their partner climbs to the top of some 5.8 on TR and the very first time the belayer receives any actual experience is when the climber is 70' up and ready to be lowered. Of course there is no one standing by to help the new belayer either. The general lackadaisical and informal so-called "training" indoctrination that many new climbers receive is a joke at best, and even with some experience a lack of legitimate training early on can directly cause incidences like we see here later on in their climbing career. There is still significant value in hiring a guide (not a gym employee, an actual rock guide) to teach newcomers the basics of climbing. The mindset that can be planted by formal, professional training can go a very long way in ensuring safety, even years later when the newcomer becomes experienced enough to become the instructor. Ultimately, blindly exchanging belay devices in an attempt to improve safety is silly at best. It's that exact mindset that contributes to the dozens of "I got dropped on a GriGri" threads. "Oh, you're new, just use the GriGri, that will fix everything."
OK, so in this case you admit a grigri would have prevented this accident, I agree.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Tim Lutz wrote: Con:is not a fool-proof device and there are those that hand it to noob belayers and make fools of the climbers and their belayers. If you happen to let go from rockfall, bees-tings, food poisoning, or yoga-pantz/booty shortz, it will catch (if your thumb isn't on the brake).
That and trying to hold the fall on the wrong damn side.

Being lectured on a tool by people that never took the time to learn how to use the tool or people that only use half of its features is getting (as I just said) comically old. I almost feel like I should be getting money from Petzl for defending their product, a free grigri would be fine.
Emil Briggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 125
20 kN wrote: Possibly, but handing him a GriGri fixes one issue only to create another. It doesent solve the underlying problem, and if your partner cannot be trusted to use the ATC then he should not be trusted to use the GriGri either. This incident speaks to a larger holistic issue, which is a complete lack of formal training for many newcomers. All too often I see new climbers show up at the crag and the only training they get is 30 seconds on the ground. Then their partner climbs to the top of some 5.8 on TR and the very first time the belayer receives any actual experience is when the climber is 70' up and ready to be lowered.
I've taken beginners out climbing and I usually try to adopt the mindset that I am free soloing when they are belaying me. I imagine that guides do much the same even if the new climber has gone through a longer course of instruction.
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
r m wrote: Not to pick on specifically you but...Is there any data to support that?
Anecdotally, I have read quite a few decking stories over the years where users inadvertently override the cam. Climbing gyms have signs up showing you how not to drop your partner with a GriGri. I don't see this sign for any other device.

I am not anti Gri or anything else, but I do see the point in Healyje's comment. Come to think of it, I don't see where he is telling anyone not to use a GriGri, his concern seems to be the attitudes surrounding the device, not the device itself.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252
T Roper wrote: Ted, you basically admitted you dont use the device with lead climbing and doubted it could hold which is comically wrong. Oh and my experience with the tool is only 15 or so years(lead mostly) and a hundreds, maybe over a thousand of lead catches.
T, no I did not. In fact, I have no idea where you would possibly get that idea. To review, I use a Grigri pretty much 90% of the time when belaying, predominately lead. The people I climb with don't generally take, so I've probably caught upwards of hundreds (if not thousands) of falls. What I have not ever done, nor ever plan to, is belay WITHOUT MY HAND ON THE BRAKE. My skepticism was directed at the Grigri's ability to catch every fall WITHOUT THE BELAYER'S HAND on the BRAKE. I posted a link from Redriverclimber where somebody tried catching a lead fall WITHOUT THEIR HAND ON THE BRAKE, and apparently it held, even though THEY DIDN'T HAVE THEIR HAND ON THE BRAKE. This was surprising, and reinforced my (already strong) faith in the inherent safety of using a Grigri FOR LEAD BELAYING, although I will continue to ALWAYS KEEP MY HAND ON THE BRAKE when LEAD BELAYING using GRIGRIs.

I'm not sure how I can be any clearer...
chris tregge · · Madison WI · Joined May 2007 · Points: 11,036
Ted Pinson wrote:I'm not sure how I can be any clearer...
By saying "brake" instead of "break".

Carry on. :-)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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