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What makes "the Euros" better?

Mike Slavens · · Houston, TX · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 35
Brian Abram wrote:I think a huge number of us could climb 5.12 or better if we trained more deliberately than dicking around at the climbing gym for 3 hours twice a week and then going to climb 5.8 trad on the weekend. Thinking "the best climber is the one having the most fun" is why we're all so weak. Few people actually really think that. They just use it as an excuse. The best climber is the driven son of a bitch failing again and again on 9a and putting up alpine first ascents.
You nailed it on the head with regards to the American mentality vs European mentality. Americans tend to view climbing as more of an adventure lifestyle (almost counter culture) whereas Europeans view it more as a true sport. This means in general the Euros are much more willing to devote the time and effort into long term dedicated training programs, giving up outside climbing for training, and projecting. The Euros also put a huge focus on competition (also stemming from their mentality on climbing) which once again drives the mentality needed for training and projecting. Also as "simplyput" simply put it, the time off plays a big role in the willingness to project. I'd be a lot more willing to project something if I knew I wasn't going to blow my entire year's worth of paid vacation projecting one route.

The European population in general also accept climbing as a legitimate sport which translates to parents being much more willing to commit their time to getting their kids into the sport. This builds a much stronger youth development program. Look at the athletes the USA cranks out in sports like gymnastics or swimming.

On a side note....
Having the most fun may not make me the best climber, but I don't care. I'm having too much fun to care if I'm the best climber.
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
pierref wrote:10 pitches fully bolted routes are very common in italia , austria, france and spain.
Which is not (originally) because of a love for convenience, but rather because most rock in Europe is of types (esp limestone) that do not protect well with Trad gear.

Around Chamonix / Mont Blanc where they have lots of protectable sound granite, better bring your Trad rack.

Also at least in France lots of smart climbers with full-time jobs routinely carry a handful of Trad pieces to "fill in" where those supposedly "fully bolted" routes are kind of run out.

And I don't know about the current popularity of Multi-Pitch. I've spent lots of days in France with perfect weather on ultra-classic multi-pitch routes with nobody within sight or earshot except me and my partner.

And days with lots of people out at half-pitch crags.

Last September on a classic moderate multi-pitch in the Dolomites right by the city of Cortina d'Ampezzo, my local partner said ...
Not many people except visiting Czechs + Poles do this route any more, because the approach is more than an hour.

Ken
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
Sanllan wrote:
> Reasons:
> -There are no Mcdonalds in every corner.
> -People walk or ride a bike all the time.

Maybe in the old days.
Actually there are lots of McDonalds in France -- many now with two-lane drive-thrus, crowded with long lines of cars on weekend evenings.
France is one of McDonalds' most successful countries worldwide. McDonalds outlets in France in my experience are more technologically advanced than USA.

It's true that many towns in Europe are very well set up for bicycling and walking. Nevertheless there is a big concern that French children prefer video games and are gaining weight.

In towns at the foot of world-famous alpine climbing mountains, usually the most popular sport is Ice Hockey.

Ken
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
kennoyce wrote: At least in my experience, in Europe (with the exception of Great Brittan) they embrace climbing as climbing and don't have this big trad vs sport divide that we have over here and that alone helps them to climb harder.
This. I find climbers in N.America less open minded to what they could/enjoy to climb. Case and point, during a recent rainy weekend at the Creek, I couldn't convince my friends to go climb in Rifle (forecast was sunny), but they were willing to drive as far as City of Rocks to find dry rock.
Gavin Towey · · Bend, OR · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0
Mike Slavens wrote: You nailed it on the head with regards to the American mentality vs European mentality. Americans tend to view climbing as more of an adventure lifestyle (almost counter culture) whereas Europeans view it more as a true sport. This means in general the Euros are much more willing to devote the time and effort into long term dedicated training programs, giving up outside climbing for training, and projecting. The Euros also put a huge focus on competition (also stemming from their mentality on climbing) which once again drives the mentality needed for training and projecting. Also as "simplyput" simply put it, the time off plays a big role in the willingness to project. I'd be a lot more willing to project something if I knew I wasn't going to blow my entire year's worth of paid vacation projecting one route. The European population in general also accept climbing as a legitimate sport which translates to parents being much more willing to commit their time to getting their kids into the sport. This builds a much stronger youth development program. Look at the athletes the USA cranks out in sports like gymnastics or swimming. On a side note.... Having the most fun may not make me the best climber, but I don't care. I'm having too much fun to care if I'm the best climber.
The biggest difference that I see in that is that my local climbing gym in the USA is a giant playground. It's huge, it's filled with great walls with plenty of lead climbing and tons of bouldering. People can go there and only there and have a lot of fun. And it is PACKED! Like all the time crowded with people. I bet that there are at least 300 people there at once on any weeknight. Maybe more. The crowd there includes all types of people and they're having fun. A small set of those are the truly strong, dedicated, good climbers who train there and climb outdoors as much as possible. Many only go to the gym and never venture outdoors, if they do it's because someone "takes" them.

By contrast climbing gyms I've visited in Europe are small caves in out-of-the-way locations with plywood walls and rarely enough height for roped climbing. So they substitute a lot of hangboards and other simple training equipment. The people there are only the climbing true believers working their asses off.

So I would wager that in just numbers you'll find similar amounts of really good climbers. But in Europe that's it -- you're either dedicated to climbing hard or you don't climb at all. There's few casual climbers. Fewer weekend warriors. In fact I get the impression that there are just a lot less people who treat fitness and exercise as a casual hobby in Europe. You're either all-in or you don't work out at all.

By contrast in the USA climbing is more accessible. Gyms are more user-friendly and there is the idea that anyone can do it casually. I think that means there are tons more "climbers" in the USA than Europe but it seems they're worse because they're just not as serious about it.
Rich Brereton · · Pownal, ME · Joined May 2009 · Points: 175

Surprised more people haven't brought up the simple mismatch of rock resources between the US and Europe. Europe beats the US hands down for quantities of 5.14-and-up sport climbs, and for lots of hard sport climbs you need to have lots of overhanging, dry rock. Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, even the UK all have limestone areas that yield hard sport climbs in close proximity to a vast population. In the US you have a much smaller selection of crags and areas that yield 5.14-and-up sport climbs, and they tend to be far from the largest population centers. Rifle and the Red are the only US sport areas that really stack up to the European crags, and it's not for lack of good climbers - it's for lack of good rock.

Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45

Alternative explanation: it's mostly perception. There may be some differences as discussed upthread but I bet they're not as big as people think. Here's why I think this:

Better climbers take long road trips (i.e., to other continents) to world class areas. 5.9 climbers do not.

Better climbers go to crags with hard routes--you think Sasha D would fuck with lame ass polished moderates? No! She went to spain to crush hard routes, so she sought out crags where the hard routes live. 5.9 climbers go to the gumby magnet crag where they can bumble.

When you go to the crag with hard routes, hard climbers are there. When you go to the crag with all the 5.13-5.14 routes, yeah everyone there is going to warm up on 5.12s.

The US climber who wants to go to Europe to climb likely climbs at a 5.12 or higher level. Your 5.9 trad gumby is not going to fly to chamonix to climb granite cracks.

Likewise the Euro-bumblers are not flying out to climb at the canal zone in Clear Creek Canyon. They are fuckin around at their local choss piles. The Euros who do fly over here are the crushers. It simply takes a higher level of commitment to the sport to be willing to drop thousands of dollars/euros on a climbing vacation.

So imagine a US crusher who lives in a place with some decent, not-world-class climbing. He goes to the hard zones but climbs everywhere around where he lives and sees the wide variety of crags and the variety of climbing ability/talent at those different crags. He has an accurate mental picture of people's climbing ability in the US.

Then when that US crusher goes to the crusher crag in Spain he's all, "oh wow, everyone here crushes". Well if homie ONLY ever went to Rifle, or Waimea at Rumney, or the VRG in the winter, or the motherlode cave at the RRG, guess what the weekend warriors are warming up on?

Let's take Maple Canyon for instance. If you go to the orangahang wall as a 5.11 climber, you will feel like the god of rock climbing. If you go to the Pipe Dream Cave you will realize what a weak-ass you are when a 65 year old weekend warrior hikes your proj as her warm up. It's all about the group you're comparing yourself to.

I'm not saying there's no difference but I think this all contributes to people thinking the difference is bigger than it is.

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
Stich wrote: Damn, we can fix this. Who's with me??!!! youtube.com/watch?v=FwG5j9K… Check out those aerobic moves.
climbing friend snitch,

oooohhh yes you have found it this is my favorite, yes, make me so happy for having the dancing!!!
Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651
NorCalNomad wrote: And don't forget crap all over the sport crags. :P
That right there is the key. They shit all over the place before every route and without that pesky stress of aiming for a blue bag.
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
Rich Brereton wrote:Surprised more people haven't brought up the simple mismatch of rock resources between the US and Europe.
Yes that's true and important.
And it's not just at the 5.14 level. The giant mismatch in easily-accessable, conveniently-bolted routes starts around 5.10a.

Rich Brereton wrote:Rifle and the Red are the only US sport areas that really stack up to the European crags
Lots of European visitors think Smith Rocks is worth visiting.
. . (and What happened to American Forks canyon?)

Two hours driving from Las Vegas (which includes SW Utah and the Arizona triangle) has lots of bolted limestone (see the new "Bible" guidebook), but seems like most MountainProject visitors there have only heard of Red Rocks.
. . . (and then ask if there's "anything to do" when the sandstone gets wet so they're not supposed to climb for a day or two).

Ken
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
gtowey wrote:By contrast climbing gyms I've visited in Europe are small caves in out-of-the-way locations with plywood walls and rarely enough height for roped climbing.
Sounds like your last visit to Europe was a long time ago.
Yes there are still some "bouldering caves" around, but ...

Nowadays there are big modern climbing gyms like USA in many cities around France, Switzerland, southern Germany. Less so in Italy I guess. Though in areas of Italy with lots of German weekenders, especially Alto Adige (Südtirol), try the cities of Bolzano / Bozen (Salewa Cube), Bressanone / Brixen, Meran, and Bruneck for big new climbing gyms.
Even a smaller German-tourist town (Selva di Gardena / Wolkenstein) has a brand new (small) gym.

Mur de Lyon (second largest city in France) has American-style birthday parties, an indoor Zip-line, and a an indoor Via Ferrata course, and lots of Top-Roping routes.

Vitam between Geneva and Chamonix is a giant multi-sport / shopping complex where the large modern climbing gym is just one of the recreational offerings.
Similar concept by an interstate exit between the south-Mediterranean France cities of Aix-en-Provence and Marseille.

Ken
Aweffwef Fewfae · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0

the simplest answer is the most likely: euros don't climb harder than anyone else. sasha's opinion is anecdotal and consequently isn't representative. no idea why everyone considers the premise correct.

Forthright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 110

Nivel you also have to realize that way more euros care about 8a.nu as well :P

kenr wrote: Mur de Lyon (second largest city in France) has American-style birthday parties, an indoor Zip-line, and a an indoor Via Ferrata course, and lots of Top-Roping routes. Ken
Wow, that place and the indoor "via ferrata"/ ropes course actually looks pretty rad! They even have BEER!
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Aweffwef Fewfae wrote:the simplest answer is the most likely: euros don't climb harder than anyone else. sasha's opinion is anecdotal and consequently isn't representative. no idea why everyone considers the premise correct.
Well, just more anecdotes, but in my visits to Europe, it certainly seems like there are a lot more crushers there than over here to me too.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
Optimistic wrote: I often see folks hanging for very extended periods of time, leading me to guess that people are attempting routes that are a very big stretch for them.
the only way to climb 5.12 is start trying to climb 5.12s!

More evolved culture that emphasizes outdoor activities in particular mountain and rock climbing.
Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50

This spring I relocated from U.S. to Russia. The first thing I noticed on arriving here is huge difference in climbers attitude:

  • In CA it is called "to go climbing". E.g., are you going to climb tonight? Or even: climbing tonight?
  • In Russia it is called "to go training". E.g., do you train 3 or 4 times per week?

Training and climbing are way different. Gym climbing means to have some fun. Gym training means to routinely estimate skills and fit to spot weaknesses to attack them with specific drills. In short the latter means to suffer to adapt to new moves or higher power. Permanence builds excellence.

It has been said: do not search for pleasures because they will end up with complications, do search for complications because overcoming them will end up with pleasures.
Bapgar 1 · · Out of the Loop · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 90
Darin Berdinka wrote:Their size Large is our size Medium.
The thread should have ended w/ this.
Eric Chabot · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 45

Nivel I think he means you used the wrong denominator. You have to compare the number of EU vs US climbers not relative to population size but relative to the number of climbers from each place who use 8a.nu

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Eric Chabot wrote:Nivel I think he means you used the wrong denominator. You have to compare the number of EU vs US climbers not relative to population size but relative to the number of climbers from each place who use 8a.nu
Fact of the matter is, US climbers having redpointed 9a are not unrepresented by a factor of 2 or 3. At the 9a level, the usage for 8a.nu from US climbers are quite high. mp.com is predominately a gumby site, made more so by all the gumbies demanding their feelings not get hurt.
Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45

Climbers in Europe didn't get held back by counterproductive mindsets like (but not limited to):

- Climbing MUST be done ground up onsight!
- Sport climbing is neither
- NO HANGDOGING!!!!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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