Trad catch when ground fall lurks?

cyclestupor wrote: I can see a danger if the leader is climbing under the roof, and has a piece tucked into the corner (between face and roof). In this case, if there is no slack in the system and the leader falls, he/she will swing into the face (not the roof). Is this the situation you are referring to?

This is the situation, except that the climber is climbing over it(as opposed to "climbing under the roof"), then falls. Yes, he would get slammed into the face more, compared to a little extra slack in the cord.

cyclestupor wrote: Can you clarify what you mean by "clear a roof".

Fall from above a roof and 'clear' (fall past) the lip of it. As opposed to catching it with your body/face

Brett Kitchen wrote: Fall from above a roof and 'clear' (fall past) the lip of it. As opposed to catching it with your body/face

Have had friends get short roped in a fall above the roof and smashed into the lip. Grim results.

I'm lucky (ha ha) that my fall above a roof was long enough I cleared the roof by many feet...and just fell into air...(sometimes an inattentive belayer is a good thing? Yikes...).

Edit to add: typically the climber has clipped a bolt or placed a piece just above the roof and falls above that piece.

And this other time, at band camp (in Orpierre, France), I cleared a roofy steep section, was at the anchor, draws clipped to the chains, reached down and pulled up slack to clip, and the hand rail hold I was hanging onto busted. Long enough fall I screamed and nearly hit the ramp on the bottom half of the route. Not my belayer's fault!

Brian in SLC wrote: Have had friends get short roped in a fall above the roof and smashed into the lip. Grim results. I'm lucky (ha ha) that my fall above a roof was long enough I cleared the roof by many feet...and just fell into air...(sometimes an inattentive belayer is a good thing? Yikes...).

Inattention is how you'd end up eating the lip, an attentive belayer (and assuming that below the roof is a good bit of air) can let some more slack out and/or be sure to jump into the catch with some extra bunnies to introduce that extra space

But I get what you mean, that someone not managing slack can get away with it being the better option over a roof. But that definitely should not be the go to

Brett Kitchen wrote: Inattention is how you'd end up eating the lip, an attentive belayer (and assuming that below the roof is a good bit of air) can let some more slack out and/or be sure to jump into the catch with some extra bunnies to introduce that extra space But I get what you mean, that someone not managing slack can get away with it being the better option over a roof. But that definitely should not be the go to

Reason I fell was I was short roped by an inattentive belayer, well above the roof. Plenty of rope out for me to clear the roof. Was not a happy camper.

Brian in SLC wrote: Reason I fell was I was short roped by an inattentive belayer, well above the roof. Plenty of rope out for me to clear the roof. Was not a happy camper.

No doubt, especially if you had it in the bag otherwise.

Brett Kitchen wrote: No doubt, especially if you had it in the bag otherwise.

I counted it...!

Yeah, easy ground. Noticed a lot of tension in the rope on the upper slab and I thought my rope jammed into the roof crack, maybe on a piece of gear. I'm gasping for "slaaaaaack!" and while looking down notice my belayer has me locked off and he's busy in a fully engaged conversation with another climber waaaay below. Feet popped and off I went...

Good times.

People have quoted fall speeds, but consider there may also be a moment or three where it's clear they are going to fall, e.g. they slowly barn door, they lose holds one-by-one, they're overwhelmed by shakes/Elvis leg, or yell in a desperate voice "faaaaaallllingg!!". Not all falls are the instant variety.

Stich wrote:Dr. Kodos would loudly proclaim that it's the leader's responsibility to avoid a ground fall. I think in general that holds true.

How snarky. Even if it were the leader's sole responsibility, that does not preclude the belayer from being as helpful as possible. Obviously, however, you are climbing as a team, and it is both people's responsbility, although each role requires different tactics. Such as the leader placing adequate pro and the belayer not letting go of the brake side.

Hey thanks, everyone! Guess you didn't need me around at all for this one. Lol!

Ran up against a post limit, so I'm only just back.

Climber wasn't on an r or x, just stretching it out a bit before placing number three, and, as I said, that's when I'm considering if I will have to be plan B.

Since I belay a lot more often than I climb, I'm pretty habitual about scoping out the climb, working out where the line might go, what might be dicey (ledges, etc), figuring out where I want to stand, or even where CAN I stand. Sometimes that is indeed up on top of a column, which gives the possibility of just stepping off, but obviously has some drawbacks too. Yes, I do think of that.

My aim in belaying is for your falls to be of as little consequence as possible (usually minimal slack), but for you to not notice at all what I'm doing. Which means I'm watching, adjusting, and trying to anticipate. Yeah, I do also look around, watch birds fly by, daydream now and then, but the hands are always paying attention. I actually enjoy this a lot.

Our local stuff is columnar basalt, with a typical steep slope down. In this case, that slope was pretty close (east car body, Trevor), and my plan B was just to drop, perhaps to slide. Plan C was to be a human crash pad. Scratched that one!

The roof discussion is basically also the same discussion you MPers kindly indulged me in, when pendulum falls came up. Who ever asked about the roofs and slack, you would probably find those discussions interesting also.

Trevor, I'm the grigri impaired girl, remember? How are you liking that Alpine? Any downside now that you've had it awhile?

Again, thanks all! Much appreciated.

Best, Helen

If you do some of the climbs at Suicide like Re-bolting, Arpa Carpa and a few more I can't recall right now... your belayer had better be ready to run at a certain point.

The climbs were put up with this in mind. We all belayed with the standard hip-belay and had friends ready to help pull down a ton of slack and keep the climber from hitting the ground.

And remember this... these are slab falls, you do not fall at the same 32 seconds squared and the hit is not as severe as a fall through the sky.

Old Lady H .... if your leader is placing pieces and skip's good placements, heck even poor placements..... get mad at them for placing the whole party at risk. If they can't get anything in, that's something else, just be quiet and say a little prayer.

Most everything has been said but I have experienced this personally and I'd say don't count on the run (with some exceptions like Guy and others stated). I was belaying a partner who was above a ledge halfway up the pitch. I knew he would hit it if he fell so when he cut loose I jumped back off a 5 ft ledge I was on and he still decked. I was ready and paying attention so I can't imagine it being successful very often if you're just running spur of the moment.

I have, however, had luck taking in an armload (or two) of slack and sitting back into my harness.

Basically, I agree with the people here that with the exception of a few specific circumstances it's gonna take too long to be worth thinking about.

cyclestupor wrote: Can you clarify what you mean by "clear a roof". I've seen this mentioned several times by various people, but I am having a hard time visualizing how having too little slack in the system can cause a leader to impact a roof when they fall. What is the scenario here.

Say the leader has pulled onto the headwall above a roof and placed a piece or clipped a bolt ten feet or so above the lip of the roof or overhang. If too little slack is given, a lead fall could cause the climber to have a small pendulum under the roof, potentially catching their shins, torso, head etc on the lip of said roof/overhang. This can be made worse if they are spiked into the lip - I've seen it happen, and it really sucks. Good potential for broken limbs.

A soft catch to "clear the roof" means that the belayer gives enough slack or jumps at the right time to ensure that the rope catches the leader so that when they are pulled into the wall (if at all), the lip of the roof does not pose a threat for impact.

Thanks for the clarification Brian.