Beta?

ViperScale wrote:------------- BACK ON TOPIC ------------- This also kind goes back to climbing pre-hung draws vs hanging draws as they go. I know of routes I on sighted with pre-hung draws but have never been able to lead it cleanly without pre-hung. I have a -4 ape index and I just can't reach the bolts and will not put myself in risk of a 30ft + ground fall to run it out. So did I really on sight that route or not, imo I didn't but than I really don't care!

It's called a pink point.

kevin deweese wrote: It seems a bit obvious that he's reposting what others have posted online. Hope your mountain sense is better than your reading comprehension, Geez

That quote he posted is not anywhere else in this thread... where else am I suppose to be getting it from?

Maybe I am just missing something or maybe someone removed the post so I never saw it?

Mark E Dixon wrote:Chuff, I'd disagree slightly. I don't think the pleasure/challenge of onsigjting is strictly related to the difficulty of the route. I'd argue it's the match between the climber's ability and the route's difficulty that matters. Ondra has his onsight challenges, I have mine, and VS could have his.

Mark, I agree. And if you take that same concept and apply it to 7s, 8s and 9s, it still holds true. Maybe he has to grab a jug a certain way to get onto and off of it. Or lock in a jam thumbs down instead of thumbs up. Those things can't really be determined from the ground, just by looking at the route. This becomes more pertinent the higher off the ground it is. Also, let's say that I'm a 5.9 climber. Perhaps with very detailed beta I can flash 5.10d, but onsight it probably wouldn't ever happen. That to me is the real difference. And you can't get the flash beta you need from the ground unless you have like 20/5 vision in both eyes and the route is 30 feet tall. The harder the route is for YOU, the more that holds true (probably what I should have said in the first place).

My only beef is that saying there's no difference between onsight and flash is ridiculous. The more devious the beta, the more concrete this fact becomes. Arguing this point exposes oneself to criticism, for the very reasons aforementioned.

Can someone post a link to this thing that I can't seem to find to read the original post anywhere?

Everyone keeps being surprised that I am responding to the person who is quoting someone else but I can't seem to find the original!

I do have alot of problems reading so it could but I am just missing it.

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BACK ON TOPIC
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This still goes back to how stupid the definitions of these words are. You pretty much can't avoid beta on a sport route. It has bolts, it has chalk on the wall, you had to read a guide book to get to the route. Sure maybe not the same as someone giving you a step by step guide but where is the difference between beta and still having on sight vs beta and it becoming a flash???

That is my entire point is that unless you throw the guide book out and find a wall with no chalk (and yes sometimes chalked hold is the one you don't want to use) you will always have some degree of beta and it is up to who to decide if it is a flash or a on sight?

Also is it an on sight if someone gives you a ton of beta and you don't use it but climb it a completely different style?

Ted Pinson wrote:Once you take the whip, there's no reason not to accept beta

Damn, I'm climbing wrong. I thought it was fun to puzzle things out myself and that maybe it would help me onsight other climbs later on.

Martin Harris wrote:This is not an argument on what flash and onsight is. The question is would you rather fail on sighting or succeed in a flash.

As noted above, I prefer onsighting. Not that I discount flashing - it just doesn't appeal to me. I generally like to experience things as "untainted" as possible. Not just in climbing; when looking for books/movies/TV I try to maintain as much ignorance going in as possible. I don't seek movie trailers. I'd rather know nothing about the specific story and select based on things like genre, recommendations, and the people involved. That may be whether I like the author (or people that like authors I've enjoyed also recommend it), director, actors, etc.

I like to think back to this V5 me and a friend projected. We both used the same exact holds in the same exact order but we both climbed the problem completely different. The way our hands held the hold the way our body was leaning was all different. I really wish I had a video of both of us climbing it cause I thought the outcome was really cool how you can use the same holds and still climb a problem completely different.

ViperScale wrote:Can someone post a link to this thing that I can't seem to find to read the original post anywhere? Everyone keeps being surprised that I am responding to the person who is quoting someone else but I can't seem to find the original! I do have alot of problems reading so it could but I am just missing it.

don'tchuffonme wrote: The quoted bit was from someone that saw this thread, and knows who you are. I've never met you, thankfully. Try reading. It might help with the confusion you seem to have about who is who.

Ever stop to think that your reading comprehension and inability to grasp the most basic of things might be a chief contributor to the issue in which you currently find yourself mired?

Just a thought.

MojoMonkey wrote: Damn, I'm climbing wrong. I thought it was fun to puzzle things out myself and that maybe it would help me onsight other climbs later on. As noted above, I prefer onsighting. Not that I discount flashing - it just doesn't appeal to me.

Silly Mojo, don't you know there's no difference?

don'tchuffonme wrote: Ever stop to think that your reading comprehension and inability to grasp the most basic of things might be a chief contributor to the issue in which you currently find yourself mired? Just a thought.

That was in response to this.

kevin deweese wrote: It seems a bit obvious that he's reposting what others have posted online. Hope your mountain sense is better than your reading comprehension, Geez

But clearly I understood that this was your friend or someone that you were talking to. However this person clearly doesn't know me based on your quote because I know the only person that we talked to at that wall friday and I don't know them at all, I think I maybe ran into them 1 other time when we were climbing at moores (maybe).

But you think someone who spent maybe 15-30mins talking at the crag can make a judgment of the climbing ability of a person?

I thought this person that I am pretty sure you are talking to seemed like someone who had an ego because he kept talking down to routes that weren't sustained hard climbing. Made a comment about zoo view and break on through being bad routes because they had so much easy climbing around the small hard sections. I didn't say anything to him about it and just left it be and tried not to pass judgement but after all these post I think my judgment was correct about them.

Also just to add Zoo view is probably one of my top 5 favorite pitches to climb out of everywhere I have climbed.

PS: I have a terrible fear of heights and honestly if I had a partner where I never had to ever lead anything and could just follow I would love it.

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ViperScale wrote: Also just to add Zoo view is probably one of my top 5 favorite pitches to climb out of everywhere I have climbed.

Did you flash it or onsight it?

don'tchuffonme wrote: Did you flash it or onsight it?

I climbed it first attempt on lead without falling, all that matters.

I was on the ledge and my partner wasn't sure if he wanted to climb it, another group that was on the ledge with me had someone who wanted to follow it and his partner didn't want to climb it so we swapped partners and I just went for it.

ViperScale wrote: I climbed it first attempt on lead without falling, all that matters to me.

There, I fixed it for you.

don'tchuffonme wrote: There, I fixed it for you.

thx! My english sucks.

Only climbing style that really matters is getting the FSA (First Sock Assent). All you people with climbing shoes are just climbing a form of aid.

don'tchuffonme wrote: There, I fixed it for you.

I really hope you're not implying that it matters to anybody else. Seriously, if you care about how hard others are climbing, you need a good humbling to deflate your ego. Really, who gives a fuck. What matters is that you're enjoying yourself and hopefully not getting injured.

eli poss wrote: I really hope you're not implying that it matters to anybody else. Seriously, if you care about how hard others are climbing, you need a good humbling to deflate your ego. Really, who gives a fuck. What matters is that you're enjoying yourself and hopefully not getting injured.

No, absolutely not. How hard someone else climbs doesn't matter to me. Whether I redpoint, flash, or onsight does matter to me and all three things are very different animals in my book. That's what I meant when I said that. What does matter to me is when someone is full of shit and sprays about how none of it matters and according to at least one other person is full of shit. There is no cheating in climbing. Only lying. I don't give two shits what you climb. I do however give a shit if you lie about it.