Beta?

don'tchuffonme wrote: Your cluelessness is glaringly obvious. You can't tell how good holds are from the ground. You can't see over roofs from the ground. The harder the climb is, the more intensive the beta is. Like a slight drop knee and a reposition on a certain hold in order to make the next move. Perhaps if you only boulder 6 foot high problems, which I suspect is the case, then you'd have an argument. When your recent ticks start coming remotely close to what you say you climb (.11b) maybe then you can talk about how there's no difference between a flash and an onsight. I don't suspect that will happen any time soon though.

Technically, you're right but come on dude. Remember guideline #1? It's only right above the textbox everytime you post something. Just because you're right doesn't mean you have to be an asshole and start throwing out personal insults.

Martin Harris wrote:The question is would you rather fail on sighting or succeed in a flash.

'zactly.

If you have a real chance of sending, onsighting is a very worthy goal and an important skill to hone. It does seem a little more relevant when approaching a trad climb. However, if you are trying something at or beyond your limit, why not accept beta?

I am always surprised when people try and try something and don't want any outside support(usually folks maxed out at 5.11 or below). I think people take it as a matter of personal pride but it seems to me after the point where you are struggling and don't want help you are just hindering your own progression. While "solving the puzzle" will always be important, at a certain level it becomes much more about athletic ability. This is one of the most rewarding things about redpointing, that you already "know the answers" and can relax your mind and focus solely on the movement.

Martin Harris wrote:So I mostly sport climb in rifle these days and most of my friends share beta and life is good. Climbing at another crag there was a route I was hoping to onsight/ flash and I made it known I would rather flash the route then fall first go. I ended up screwing up the last ten feet by not veering left, and my not normal climbing partner and others at the base said nothing because they didn't want to mess up my ascent,I was slightly annoyed. Am I a complete loser for being just as stoked to flash a sport climb near my limit as on sighting.

climbing friend,

yes.

do not attempt to wang-slap the others for your mental and physical failures on the holy battle of the flash for eternal glorification before your gods.

it is your own fault of your own self. you cannot say "guise, guise, look guise, I fell because you didn't tell me where to go! cmon guise!!!!!mmmmmwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh wah wah waaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!"

eli poss wrote: Technically, you're right but come on dude. Remember guideline #1? It's only right above the textbox everytime you post something. Just because you're right doesn't mean you have to be an asshole and start throwing out personal insults.

You know, you're right Eli. I know better. I just get so tired of these asshats spewing bullshit from a position of knowing absolutely nothing. Whatever happened to being humble and paying your dues and doing research and knowing what the hell you're talking about before running off at the mouth?

So, I apologize for the personal attack VS, but for fuck's sake, have some fucking humility and if you're going to shoot your mouth off, at least know what you're talking about. I don't care if someone is opinionated and actually has a platform of experience from which to speak, it's the opposite that's so bothersome.

Martin Harris wrote:This is not an argument on what flash and onsight is. The question is would you rather fail on sighting or succeed in a flash. On sight being no beta walking up to a climb and sending. Flash being beta on crucial hard sections. And not to be a dick but on sighting 5.10 sport climbs is not the same thing as cryptic 11+ and harder climbing. So I feel like flashing harder things is equivalent to onsighting moderate things. I am simply curios if others agree.

The better question is whether you would rather fail at the flash because you didn't get the sequence right or lose the potential on sight because your friends spewed beta without being asked for it.

Flashing isn't the same as onsighting, but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, unless you're into climbing solely for the purpose of chasing numbers or comparing dongs at the crag.

verticalworldtraveler wrote: 'zactly. If you have a real chance of sending, onsighting is a very worthy goal and an important skill to hone. It does seem a little more relevant when approaching a trad climb. However, if you are trying something at or beyond your limit, why not accept beta? I am always surprised when people try and try something and don't want any outside support(usually folks maxed out at 5.11 or below). I think people take it as a matter of personal pride but it seems to me after the point where you are struggling and don't want help you are just hindering your own progression. While "solving the puzzle" will always be important, at a certain level it becomes much more about athletic ability. This is one of the most rewarding things about redpointing, that you already "know the answers" and can relax your mind and focus solely on the movement.

True, but Redpointing is very different from flashing. Once you take the whip, there's no reason not to accept beta, but I can see why someone would want to at least try for the onsight before accepting beta. I also think that the difference between flashing and onsighting really doesn't
matter until you're climbing hard, because until then you lack the body awareness/control, proprioception, and technical ability to really benefit from beta prior to
climbing. Sure, a 5.13 climber could probably give amazing beta to a 5.9 climber, but would they be able to actually execute the moves?

No reason? What if someone just wants to figure out the sequence for them self??

Ted Pinson wrote: True, but Redpointing is very different from flashing. Once you take the whip, there's no reason not to accept beta, but I can see why someone would want to at least try for the onsight before accepting beta. I also think that the difference between flashing and onsighting really doesn't matter until you're climbing hard, because until then you lack the body awareness/control, proprioception, and technical ability to really benefit from beta prior to climbing. Sure, a 5.13 climber could probably give amazing beta to a 5.9 climber, but would they be able to actually execute the moves?

Well the OP might have flashed if somebody just shouted up "go left!"
I think even a 5.9 climber could figure that beta out. Even an AT thru hiker.

Kris Hampton has a blog post arguing against using other people's beta. Thinks it hinders learning.
I agree to a point. But sometimes you just need new ideas.

I agree, but that sounds like a major f-up in route reading, especially for a sport route. I don't even know if I would call "go left" beta, lol.

On sights on sport routes are impossible. There are bolts so you know generally where to go, if you want a real on sight you need to go for a trad route with no chalk.

Lets face it who really cares one way or another?

Do you make more money if you climb first attempt without beta vs first attempt with beta? Maybe I am missing something here but it really makes no difference, if you think it does than you need to check your ego at the car before you go out to climb. Most people could care less.

Do whatever you want and stop caring about what other people think.

don'tchuffonme wrote: Your cluelessness is glaringly obvious. You can't tell how good holds are from the ground. You can't see over roofs from the ground. The harder the climb is, the more intensive the beta is. Like a slight drop knee and a reposition on a certain hold in order to make the next move. Perhaps if you only boulder 6 foot high problems, which I suspect is the case, then you'd have an argument. When your recent ticks start coming remotely close to what you say you climb (.11b) maybe then you can talk about how there's no difference between a flash and an onsight. I don't suspect that will happen any time soon though.

FYI you do realize that there is a ton of shit people climb that isn't on this site. I try to throw up ticks for some of the areas I have climbed but probably half the stuff I have climbed doesn't exist on here, I don't climb hard most of the time but I love to find virgin rock in the middle of nowhere. I try to put a impossible long time for anything I happen to come across that I know I have climbed before but I don't put real dates for the very reason that you are posting about.

Kinda sad that you are judging what someone climbs by the tick chart, you should get out more and climb.

Posting questions on here is dumb. That whole thread maybe offered 2 legit answers.

ViperScale wrote:On sights on sport routes are impossible.

No. The fact that you think they are shows that you've never attempted something where the slightest shift in position, grip, sequence, etc makes the difference from sending or not. In other words, something hard. You cannot possibly decipher these things from the ground.

ViperScale wrote: There are bolts so you know generally where to go, if you want a real on sight you need to go for a trad route with no chalk.

Hahaha! Classic. So a crack where you can see the size of the pro that goes in and you can see all the "moves" from the ground is somehow different than a bolted route where you can see the same thing? You have green gumby misinformation literally dripping off everything you say. All the makings of the typical trad daddy that turns his nose up at sport climbers because he can't climb that hard and bolsters his own position by thinking that because something is gear protected, it's harder. Sorry, but that's not the way it works.

ViperScale wrote: Lets face it who really cares one way or another? Do you make more money if you climb first attempt without beta vs first attempt with beta? Maybe I am missing something here but it really makes no difference, if you think it does than you need to check your ego at the car before you go out to climb.

Yet you still argue, and nonsensically at that.

ViperScale wrote: Most people could care less.

COULDN'T care less. If you could care less, you currently care some.

ViperScale wrote: Do whatever you want and stop caring about what other people think.

Great advice. Try following it.

ViperScale wrote: FYI you do realize that there is a ton of shit people climb that isn't on this site. I try to throw up ticks for some of the areas I have climbed but probably half the stuff I have climbed doesn't exist on here,

Doubt that. Where? Just give a general area. I'm very familiar with NC.

ViperScale wrote: I don't climb hard most of the time but I love to find virgin rock in the middle of nowhere. I try to put a impossible long time for anything I happen to come across that I know I have climbed before but I don't put real dates for the very reason that you are posting about. Kinda sad that you are judging what someone climbs by the tick chart, you should get out more and climb.

Yeah, I probably should. The thing is, people that have actually met you have quite the same opinion as me:

"I have to say, mean or not, you hit it correctly when you said when his tick marks actually matched what he says he can climb -
Friday he walked up to the crag, gave a lot of descriptions to his partner, who was visiting from out of state, about the routes but it was obvious he hadn't climbed them and then when his partner asked which of the climbs did he want to lead, he replied "Oh, I can do any of them." But then proceeded to lead the easiest route (5.7) on the wall."

don'tchuffonme wrote:Yeah, I probably should. The thing is, people that have actually met you have quite the same opinion as me: "I have to say, mean or not, you hit it correctly when you said when his tick marks actually matched what he says he can climb - Friday he walked up to the crag, gave a lot of descriptions to his partner, who was visiting from out of state, about the routes but it was obvious he hadn't climbed them and then when his partner asked which of the climbs did he want to lead, he replied "Oh, I can do any of them." But then proceeded to lead the easiest route (5.7) on the wall."

At least I know who you are now. You were that tool sitting there with that attribute I am assuming. The type of people I don't like to be around. Like I said just because I prefer not climbing hard stuff doesn't mean I can't. And when it comes to trad I normally don't climb hard crap at all. I have never lead anything harder than an easy 5.10a. When did I ever say I have climbed harder?

I have on sighted 5.11s and even done 2 5.12s on sight but those were on the west coast which I have found to be much easier than east coast (not sure if it is style or maybe they just grade easier). I don't really like to spend time projecting (especially on trad).

And since when does this thread have anything to do with climbing hard? I thought this was about Beta not about how hard you penis gets. I am glade my option of what I thought about the person at the wall was true! The one who was talking about how bad a route was to climb because it was easy. You know there are better reasons to climb than how hard something is. Your the type of people who give climbers a bad name.

FYI I ended up climbing that problem you guys were on after you left without falling, not sure if I would want to do it on lead due to how poor the protection is but whatever.

Also there are like 4 routes listed in my guide book at just the little amp that isn't on this site (and there are a few listed that I don't see in my guide book either).

ViperScale wrote: At least I know who you are now. You were that tool sitting there with that attribute I am assuming. The type of people I don't like to be around. Like I said just because I prefer not climbing hard stuff doesn't mean I can't. And when it comes to trad I normally don't climb hard crap at all. I have never lead anything harder than an easy 5.10a. When did I ever say I have climbed harder? I have on sighted 5.11s and even done 2 5.12s on sight but those were on the west coast which I have found to be much easier than east coast (not sure if it is style or maybe they just grade easier). I don't really like to spend time projecting (especially on trad). And since when does this thread have anything to do with climbing hard? I thought this was about Beta not about how hard you penis gets. I am glade my option of what I thought about the person at the wall was true! The one who was talking about how bad a route was to climb because it was easy. You know there are better reasons to climb than how hard something is. Your the type of people who give climbers a bad name. FYI I ended up climbing that problem you guys were on after you left without falling, not sure if I would want to do it on lead but whatever. Also there are like 4 routes listed in my guide book at just the little amp that isn't on this site (and there are a few listed that I don't see in my guide book either).

Who are you even talking to? If you're addressing me, you're mistaken. The quoted bit was from someone that saw this thread, and knows who you are. I've never met you, thankfully. Try reading. It might help with the confusion you seem to have about who is who. For someone that doesn't care, you sure seem defensive. Also, lots of typos. Are you shitting your pants with rage right now?

ViperScale wrote: And since when does this thread have anything to do with climbing hard? I thought this was about Beta not about how hard you penis gets.

That's the whole point. Let me spell it out for you in the most layman terms possible, like you're not even a climber, so that you can understand. The harder the route, the more likely that tiny changes in sequence or beta or grip position can make the difference. If you have information on these tiny bits of beta, then it is a flash. If you do not, and you figure it out while doing it, and manage not to fall or hang, then it is onsight. There is a big difference. The harder the route, the bigger the difference. You cannot possible see a thumb catch or how deep or shallow a pocket is or know how to position your feet just right on tiny edges from the ground- the further up the crux sequence is, the more this holds true. The fact that you think this is possible, that you can see all these things that a successful onsight attempt hinges upon from the ground, blatantly exhibits that you've never climbed something where this holds true. Yes, a 40 ft splitter 5.9 hand crack can probably be deciphered from the ground. Yes, a bolted 5.7 can probably be worked out from the ground. Now try that on l2a. Not the same thing. Not even close. So, which 12s have you onsighted? Let me guess, they're not in the MP database, right?

Chuff, I'd disagree slightly.

I don't think the pleasure/challenge of onsigjting is strictly related to the difficulty of the route.
I'd argue it's the match between the climber's ability and the route's difficulty that matters.

Ondra has his onsight challenges, I have mine, and VS could have his.

ViperScale wrote: I have never lead anything harder than an easy 5.10a. When did I ever say I have climbed harder? I have on sighted 5.11s and even done 2 5.12s on sight but those were on the west coast which I have found to be much easier than east coast (not sure if it is style or maybe they just grade easier)

That must be the issue here. I'm stuck on the west coast with all these easy climbs so I just don't get it.

I on sighted mountainproject.com/v/twink… a few years ago not that it matters.

Anyone know if there is a way to block your page from others looking at it. Those ticks have nothing to really do with what I can climb and are there for other reasons. If there isn't I will just start keeping a manual list of stuff I want to remember and delete all the ticks so I don't have to deal with this BS.

So was it your friend that was the tool at the wall last Friday? I am just curious because they had one of the worst attitudes and egos about climbing hard. I run across people like that bouldering alot, sometimes sport, but rarely people climbing trad.

Do you always think just because someone doesn't climb hard doesn't mean they can't?

I practiced to get up to the point where I can redpoint 12s but once i reached that point I rarely ever climb anything harder than 10s. I am sure I am not the only person out there who would much rather climb a 500ft 5.7 than a 100ft 5.12. Clearly from what your friend was saying at the crag I would be a disease to the climbing community.

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BACK ON TOPIC
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This also kind goes back to climbing pre-hung draws vs hanging draws as they go. I know of routes I on sighted with pre-hung draws but have never been able to lead it cleanly without pre-hung. I have a -4 ape index and I just can't reach the bolts and will not put myself in risk of a 30ft + ground fall to run it out.

So did I really on sight that route or not, imo I didn't but than I really don't care!

Normally I just read these threads and get tickled. I feel I should try to help you youngsters out with an old climber's perspective here.

Climbing has always been an ego driven sport. It now seems to have evolved to a new level of chest beating.

When I started climbing in 1978 there was no such thing as "onsight" "redpoint" or "beta" those terms began to see use in the mid to late '80s. We did use the word "flash" to describe doing a route very quickly. When the term "onsight" began to see use it was always in conjunction with the first ascent being done the first try without any rehearsal or occasionally ever having been to the crag.

We walked up to it, roped up and got on with it. If it wasn't a first ascent there was no "extra credit" given for not knowing anything about the climb. You either did it or you didn't.

Far as I'm concerned that's still all that really matters, either you can do it or you can't.

Climbing is a dangerous sport, getting injured (or worse) because you didn't want to have info about a climb beforehand is just stupid.

If you really want to be a bad ass throw away your guidebook. JB

John Barritt wrote: If you really want to be a bad ass throw away your guidebook. JB

+1 my favorite type of climbing is walking up to a crag looking at something that looks fun and just going for it. It always anonys me when I see people who won't even try top roping a route because it is listed as whatever in the guide but and they think it is to hard.

Also why I train in the gym to climb harder stuff, not because I want to climb it outdoors but so when I jump on some random wall I know nothing about if I run into a hard section I can deal with it.

ViperScale wrote: So was it your friend that was the tool at the wall last Friday? I am just curious because they had one of the worst attitudes and egos about climbing hard.

It seems a bit obvious that he's reposting what others have posted online. Hope your mountain sense is better than your reading comprehension, Geez