Overkill?

In My Humble Opinion, if this is the level of safety you need for a rappel anchor, then maybe rock climbing is not the sport for you.

Any idea what is up with the 4 other ropes threaded through the rings?

Looks like a J. Marsella Super Anchor. Bomber.

This is one of the anchors on the way to the Heart on El Cap.

Looks a little sketchy without a keeper knot on the bowline knot tied to upper left bolt.

There was probably a keep knot above the bowlines. I had untied it and was ready to cut it off the lower bolts when I decided to take a photo of it. I retied it, took the photo and then cut the whole mess off.

Well if we're doing Mountain Project safety patrol anchor analysis, I spy an improperly tied bowline

The bowlines are not safetied but are they themselves improperly tied?

are those just two sets of anchors? ...with a silly backup

FrankPS wrote:Looks like a J. Marsella Super Anchor. Bomber.

too few moving parts. Mr. Hudon needs to up his anchor skillset if he wants to compete with the big boys...

Ha!

+1

Mark Hudon wrote:The bowlines are not safetied but are they themselves improperly tied?

As I learned it, and if others are more informed please chime in, a bowline loses a fair percentage of its strength when the tail exits the outside of the knot (opposed to the inside of the loop when turning the last bight) i.e. the right one in the picture.

Is it a point of failure? Nope.

EDIT: I can't find any testing to support this. See posts below.

I did not know that!

Thanks!

It is my understanding that the bowline should be finished with the tail to the inside of the loop not for increased strength, but in an effort to make the tail lower profile, and less likely to snag. If there is no keeper knot and you pull on the tail hard enough, the bowline inverts into slip knot and you get your wings. This happens no matter what side you finish the tail on and it explains the importance of the final safety/keeper knot on the remainder of the tail.

The danger of bowline inversion is really only worth considering when the knot is in motion. This is why a regular bowline would be a poor choice for attaching a load to a haul line. When the knot is tied to a stationary object, like a tree or a bolted anchor, and finished with a keeper knot, there is virtually no chance of inversion.

Now, I could certainly be wrong about this, but I believe the concern over finishing the bowline dates back to a time when people frequently tied in with a bowline on a coil, or just a regular bowline around the waist. What with all the chimneys that were getting climbed in that era and all, catching the knot was a real possibility.

Try it at home, it's fun. Tie a regular bowline, then pull on the tail. Conversely, you can tie a slip knot, stick the tail through the loop, pull, and you have a bowline.

batguano wrote:It is my understanding that the bowline should be finished with the tail to the inside of the loop not for increased strength, but in an effort to make the tail lower profile, and less likely to snag. If there is no keeper knot and you pull on the tail hard enough, the bowline inverts into slip knot and you get your wings. This happens no matter what side you finish the tail on and it explains the importance of the final safety/keeper knot on the remainder of the tail. The danger of bowline inversion is really only worth considering when the knot is in motion. This is why a regular bowline would be a poor choice for attaching a load to a haul line. When the knot is tied to a stationary object, like a tree or a bolted anchor, and finished with a keeper knot, there is virtually no chance of inversion. Now, I could certainly be wrong about this, but I believe the concern over finishing the bowline dates back to a time when people frequently tied in with a bowline on a coil, or just a regular bowline around the waist. What with all the chimneys that were getting climbed in that era and all, catching the knot was a real possibility. Try it at home, it's fun. Tie a regular bowline, then pull on the tail. Conversely, you can tie a slip knot, stick the tail through the loop, pull, and you have a bowline.

This seems to be correct. I did a quick googling and couldn't find any testing that shows that there is any strength difference, just many people (myself included) that were told that the in-the-loop-tail variant is correct. So it looks like a silly superstition that we can do away with at this point, like "back up" knots for the figure 8.

A few years back (~2009) when we were rapping the fixed lines from heart ledges I specifically remember one bolt station, which looked like this one (though I thought the wedge bolts were bigger - like 1/2), with studs that were very wobbly. In playing with it a little I was able to slide one of the wedge anchors most of the way out. Knowing all the stations were connected I just slid it back in and continued on down (what else are you gonna do at that point). I wonder if this is the same anchor, and if it's still the same. This picture looks pretty ridiculous but maybe that's the reason for the newer 5 pieces below?

batguano wrote:It is my understanding that the bowline should be finished with the tail to the inside of the loop not for increased strength, but in an effort to make the tail lower profile, and less likely to snag. If there is no keeper knot and you pull on the tail hard enough, the bowline inverts into slip knot and you get your wings. This happens no matter what side you finish the tail on and it explains the importance of the final safety/keeper knot on the remainder of the tail. The danger of bowline inversion is really only worth considering when the knot is in motion. This is why a regular bowline would be a poor choice for attaching a load to a haul line. When the knot is tied to a stationary object, like a tree or a bolted anchor, and finished with a keeper knot, there is virtually no chance of inversion. Now, I could certainly be wrong about this, but I believe the concern over finishing the bowline dates back to a time when people frequently tied in with a bowline on a coil, or just a regular bowline around the waist. What with all the chimneys that were getting climbed in that era and all, catching the knot was a real possibility. Try it at home, it's fun. Tie a regular bowline, then pull on the tail. Conversely, you can tie a slip knot, stick the tail through the loop, pull, and you have a bowline.

This all seems to be a myth, perhaps initiated by no less of an authoritative source than the Ashley Book of Knots, which rates this form "distinctly inferior." No testing has established significant differences, and indeed there are some tests suggesting the "tail-out" form, variously called a "left-handed bowline," "cowboy bowline," and "Dutch Navy Bowline" is actually stronger. The left-handed bowline is, for example, more resistant to ring-loading.

Me, I learned the tail-in method and that's what I do. Once you've applied some type of finishing backup, it surely isn't going to matter at all.

rgold wrote: This all seems to be a myth, perhaps initiated by no less of an authoritative source than the Ashley Book of Knots, which rates this form "distinctly inferior." No testing has established significant differences, and indeed there are some tests suggesting the "tail-out" form, variously called a "left-handed bowline," "cowboy bowline," and "Dutch Navy Bowline" is actually stronger. The left-handed bowline is, for example, more resistant to ring-loading. Me, I learned the tail-in method and that's what I do. Once you've applied some type of finishing backup, it surely isn't going to matter at all.

This.
We call it the "French" bowline because anything French is sneered at by the British. It´s the non-approved way for sailors as the end can snag BUT we were taught always to tie-in that way as it´s safer ring loaded.

nbrown wrote:A few years back (~2009) when we were rapping the fixed lines from heart ledges I specifically remember one bolt station, which looked like this one (though I thought the wedge bolts were bigger - like 1/2), with studs that were very wobbly. In playing with it a little I was able to slide one of the wedge anchors most of the way out. Knowing all the stations were connected I just slid it back in and continued on down (what else are you gonna do at that point). I wonder if this is the same anchor, and if it's still the same. This picture looks pretty ridiculous but maybe that's the reason for the newer 5 pieces below?

Previous to 2009, the only times I used these stations was back in the 70's. Hell, we were probably using the bolts Royal Robbins and crew drilled when they were working the Salathé Wall.

My first time up the ropes after that was the fall of 09 on my way to the Shield. Back then, and ever since, I've been able to pull the 1/2" bolt on the left out about 1/2" and no more. Even back then, I laughed, pulled it out as far as it would go, clipped my haul kit to it and hauled from it. It's in perfect rock and the fricken thing is 1/2" thick and doesn't flex a hair. Given that all of the force put on that bolt is perpendicular to it, I'll bet that bolt alone would hold several thousand pounds before it failed.

I was just up to that anchor yesterday and I reall worked at pulling that bolt out with my fingers. It seems like it's coming further out but 3/4 of an inch was as far as it would go.
I'd still haul off it!

If the gear is there, I am glad to see it getting used. I don't see why you couldn't just run it through the rings and the end of the chains if you were that worried about 2 bolts failing....