Twin Ropes vs Single + Haul

FourT6and2 wrote: If I climb on one rope and haul the other: one is 70m 10.2mm rope and one 60m 9.8mm rope. If I go with twin ropes, I'd buy two real twins.

First of all, make sure you're familiar with the difference between "double (half)" ropes and "twin" ropes.

Second of all, if you are going to trail a line just for the rap, it doesn't need to be 9.8 mm. You can haul a skinny tag line (like 6 mm) or you can haul a skinny single/double rope (like 8-8.5 mm). There's no reason to carry another fat rope up just to rap on.

Third, there was confusion because of your use of the word "haul." Hauling usually implies bringing a bag up behind you. If you have a rope trailing from your haul loop, most folks call that "trailing" a rope. FYI.

Kyle Tarry wrote: First of all, make sure you're familiar with the difference between "double (half)" ropes and "twin" ropes. Second of all, if you are going to haul a line just for the rap, it doesn't need to be 9.8 mm. You can haul a skinny tag line (like 6 mm) or you can haul a skinny single/double rope (like 8-8.5 mm). There's no reason to haul another fat rope up just to rap on.

Do people really rappel on 6mm accessory cord?

Kyle Tarry wrote: You can haul a skinny tag line (like 6 mm) or you can haul a skinny single/double rope (like 8-8.5 mm). There's no reason to haul another fat rope up just to rap on.

Again, we're highly not recommending a 6mm tag line for these long routes in Europe.

I've stuck ropes on rappels in Europe and had to re-lead a pitch on the thin single rope I pulled down. You fall on a 6mm static with sparsely placed pro, frankly, you could die. At least leading single on a twin rope, a fall is survivable.

And, nearly no one uses tag lines "over there" especially for long, multi pitch routes that require long rappels to get off.

Anyhoo...

Yeah, I'm gonna go with twin 7.5mm ropes. Or something close to that. Thanks!

Seems like it will avoid having to deal with a tagline possibly getting stuck. And it's a good compromise with weight.

FourT6and2 wrote: Do people really rappel on 6mm accessory cord?

Not typically. Folks block the rappel so they rappel single on the fat, dynamic lead cord or they rappel both lines. (Ask those silly canyoneers...ha ha).

As Americans, we're really tied into (pun intended) that single fat dynamic rope. The better way is a two lead rope system (especially in the Alps).

A lot of the rappel anchors in Europe are large, single rings. Large enough to pass a fairly big knot or a biner block. Best to not.

Brian in SLC wrote: Not typically. Folks block the rappel so they rappel single on the fat, dynamic lead cord or they rappel both lines. (Ask those silly canyoneers...ha ha). As Americans, we're really tied into (pun intended) that single fat dynamic rope. The better way is a two lead rope system (especially in the Alps). A lot of the rappel anchors in Europe are large, single rings. Large enough to pass a fairly big knot or a biner block. Best to not.

So people use the 6mm line as just a leg of the rappel, but most of their weight and force is on the single, fatter lead rope? The thinner line is just to close the system, so to speak?

I mean, I can see how that works. But I don't know if I want to do that.

I don't know what the rap stations are like on this particular route. But at Bonistock, which is just up the road from this one, the anchors at the top had a third, separate ring glued into the rock next to the top bolts. The ring was about the size of a typical rapp ring. i.e. it was too small to pass a knot.

FourT6and2 wrote:Maybe Kerns or Luzern or something. The Melchsee-Frutt ski resort has cabins and shacks and hutts and stuff. But they're probably super expensive, like everything else in Switzerland.

I had a small salad for lunch in Lucerne, and it cost 30 bucks. Yeah, Switzerland is spendy.

Seems like lodging in the mountain towns can be had off season for cheaper. I found a nice room in Andermatt for 60 or so.

FourT6and2 wrote: So people use the 6mm line as just a leg of the rappel, but most of their weight and force is on the single, fatter lead rope? The thinner line is just to close the system, so to speak?

The rope is blocked at the top (either by the knot or a carabiner block). All of your weight is on the fat lead rope. Folks also do that so they can rap on a Gri Gri.

I usually rappel my tag line in combo with my fat lead rope. Skinny tag lines, especially when its windy, will go where ever they please. I feed my out of a bag while rappelling and the tension through my rap device keeps it from wandering.

Anyhoo...

FourT6and2 wrote: So people use the 6mm line as just a leg of the rappel, but most of their weight and force is on the single, fatter lead rope? The thinner line is just to close the system, so to speak? I mean, I can see how that works.

Don't even think about using a tag line system if you haven't familiarized yourself with the techniques. There are different ways to do it, some where you only rap on 1 strand, some where you rap on 2.

Here's a picture: mountainproject.com/v/10660…

Kyle Tarry wrote: Don't even think about using a tag line system if you haven't familiarized yourself with the techniques. There are different ways to do it, some where you only rap on 1 strand, some where you rap on 2. Here's a picture: mountainproject.com/v/10660…

Ah, yes. I've seen photos of that before. Never done it.

I think the safest method for me, since I'm not experienced with using a tag line to rappel, is to go with twin ropes. Not half/doubles.

Using twins seems like it's no different than using a regular single rope like you normally climb on. You clip both ropes into each piece of pro, just like a single. You treat both ropes as one. Simple. Nothing else to really worry about. Just gotta tie them together at the top when you rappel and make sure to pull the right one when you're down.

Or, I can haul up a thinner rope (not 6mm). But this brings me back to my original question. I had considered other options. But I narrowed it down to either using twins or hauling up another rope. So we are going in circles here :) What is the downside to using twins as apposed to hauling up another rope on your haul loop or on your back?

I guess with twins, you have two thinner ropes, but the add up to more than the weight of a single.

Hauling lets you climb on your regular rope as usual. But you got the weight of another rope tugging on your harness. Coiling that second rope and putting it on your back seems like it'd be even worse. Unless the second/follower gets to carry it and you switch at each belay.

Cool, thanks!

Is there anything noteworthy to be aware of when rappelling on twins? Or is it just a matter of tying them together and continuing on as normal? I've seen all the arguments about what knot to use lol.

FourT6and2 wrote:Cool, thanks! Is there anything noteworthy to be aware of when rappelling on twins? Or is it just a matter of tying them together and continuing on as normal? I've seen all the arguments about what knot to use lol.

Always EDK. But rappelling with twins is a lot faster than your 10.xmm rope. LOL! A lot faster if you are not used to it.

The answer to OPs question is IT DEPENDS. Situational dependent. Please turn your brain on. People asking MP for their opinion like were their mom planning every detail for them.

grog m wrote:The answer to OPs question is IT DEPENDS. Situational dependent. Please turn your brain on. People asking MP for their opinion like were their mom planning every detail for them.

Thanks, Mom!

7.5 twins have a thin sheath and fuzz quickly when used strictly for rock. Thinner ropes have less cut resistance.

I'd go with 8-8.5 twin/half ropes for rock. My 8mm Mammut has held up well to granite abuse. I combine it with a triple rated sterling nano as halfs when I need to make 50m raps.

Mammut says that their 7.5mm Twilight half/twins are "ideal for mutlipitch rock climbing." But the Twilight sheath percentage is 35%, vs. 42% for Mammut's 8mm Phoenix's, so the 8mm ropes will be more robust and, I think, more useful. A 60m pair will weigh about a pound more than the 7.5's, which is not a big difference in my book.

A fatter single rope makes sense if you are going to be projecting routes and expect to log a lot of falls. But a fat rope and a thin pull-down cord is an inferior solution for non-projecting ascents for reasons already explained (some 'Murcan's like the pull-cord system, but we seem to be the only ones).

If you do use a pull-cord, do not have the second trail it. The first time it gets stuck will be the last time you'll ever do that. Either the second carries it or the leader trails it.

I think the only good reason to go the pull-down cord route is financial. If you can afford the half/twins, they're better and safer unless you're planning on lots of falls. (But by the way, do not assume the fatter ropes will be more durable. A rope designed for many falls will have a relatively low sheath percentage and may be less durable than a thinner rope designed for durability.)

Speaking of half/twins, don't buy ropes that aren't dual certified (most are nowadays). You want to be able to lead on just one of your ropes in a pinch, and there are times even on sport routes when half-rope technique is useful (for example, making a difficult overhead clip with a lot of slack in one rope while still protected with the other).

As for belaying and rappelling, I wouldn't trust any device at the minimum manufacturer's diameter rating. At the very least, you'll probably want to belay and rappel using two carabiners to connect the device to the harness rather than just one. Experiment in a safe setting with free-hanging rappels to see if you are getting enough friction, and remember that if you are struggling with rappels, your ability to hold big falls is going to be inadequate.

You can look into some of the assisted-braking contraptions (although they have their own issues) or consider something like the DMM Bugette, which is made for thin ropes.

I'm looking at the Mammut and Petzl ropes.

Mammut 7.5 and 8.0 are rated for both "half" and "twin."
Petzl says the 7.7 is rated for both "double" and "twin."
Petzl says the 8.0 is rated for both "half" and "twin."

So am I correct that one could theoretically lead on these in a pinch?

And what's the difference between double and half? Or is it just a nomenclature inconsistency?

You can fall on a single strand of and "half" rated rope, doubles means the same thing. I've whipped on my 8mm after a traverse, other rope didn't go taught. Partner had an Atc guide, with gloves. Smacked his hand into the belay device. Listen to rgold about two biners to add friction.

The 7.5 twilight is what a partner has. With similar usage my 8mm Phoenix sheath is looking much better.

Cool thanks. I'll look at the 8.0mm petzl and mammut