Twin Ropes vs Single + Haul

For a 600-foot sport route (7-8 pitches) where you have full-length rappels to get down, would you rather use your regular rope and bring up another rope on your haul loop (or on your back), or would you rather use twin ropes? Some of the rappels on the routes I'm looking at are ~50 meters.

FourT6and2 wrote:For a 600-foot sport route (7-8 pitches) where you have full-length rappels to get down, would you rather use your regular rope and bring up another rope on your haul loop (or on your back), or would you rather use twin ropes? Some of the rappels on the routes I'm looking at are ~50 meters.

That makes each pitch less than 100' long. Sounds like you can real with a single 60m.

FourT6and2 wrote: Some of the rappels on the routes I'm looking at are ~50 meters.

rocknice2 wrote: That makes each pitch less than 100' long. Sounds like you can real with a single 60m.

50m = 165', so a single 60m leaves you hanging 65' above the next rappel station.

FourT6and2 wrote:For a 600-foot sport route (7-8 pitches) where you have full-length rappels to get down, would you rather use your regular rope and bring up another rope on your haul loop (or on your back), or would you rather use twin ropes? Some of the rappels on the routes I'm looking at are ~50 meters.

Depends on what ropes you already own, how much effect the weight will have, and what the route is like. Need more details to answer your question.

baldclimber wrote: Depends on what ropes you already own, how much effect the weight will have, and what the route is like. Need more details to answer your question.

If I climb on one rope and haul the other: one is 70m 10.2mm rope and one 60m 9.8mm rope.
If I go with twin ropes, I'd buy two real twins.

The route is about 220 meters long. 7 pitches. Bolted. Here's the topo. There are lots of other routes in the area too I'd love to try.

But the hold up is I don't know how long each pitch is. But topos of other routes in the area show some of those rappels being up to 50 meters. So what I don't want to have happen is I show up to climb and realize my rope is too short while on the wall.

Photos of people climbing there show them using twins. So I guess that's the way to go?

Here's a larger version: f.hikr.org/files/1585897.jpg

Unless you plan on iceclimbing a fair bit in the future I would not buy twin ropes just for these routes. Have your second bring up the 60m on their back. If this is too much weight for them then bring it up on your haul loop while leading.

Have the second trail or backpack the other rope.

Parker Wrozek wrote:Have the second trail or backpack the other rope.

Don't have the second trail a rope. It's a recipe for pain.

Twin or half ropes is my preference. If you are climbing hard, a single is easier to manage, so consider climbing on a single and trailing a length of 6mm cord that is 5m longer than your dynamic line.

Jason Todd wrote: Don't have the second trail a rope. It's a recipe for pain.

This is fair.

Although I have never had a problem with it, I suppose it could get stuck and you would have to rap down and figure it out.

I've done both (used a tag line and twins).

One I kinda prefer is to use a fatter diameter rope that's rated for single/double/twin (Mammut Serenity for example) and pair it with a light twin. Lead with both, clip both. There are times when its nice (if the route traverses and/or the pro is off line) to only clip one rope into pro. Might make it safer for a partner on a steep traverse for example. Two lead ropes give you a lot more flexibility.

What crag is that topo from? A Plaisir route guidebook?

A thing to be careful of...if you've not rappelled on steep terrain with a set of twins and are used to a doubled, thicker single rope, then the friction difference on a device like an ATC is significant. Plan for that.

On a four or five pitch route you're going to rappel, I wouldn't haul. Just fuel up, drink up, energy bar in a pocket, water bottle clipped to your harness, and go go.

Looks like fun!

I've done quite a bit of multi-pitch sport over in France. We used twin 7.5mm ropes and that's what I'd recommend.

Some dumb-assed Americans were hauling a bag through one of the Jardins in the Verdon and almost killed me and two other parties by dislodging rocks. I learned how to say "Fucking Americans!" in French that day. Don't haul.

But be very sure you have a belay/rappel device of the proper size or it won't give you adequate friction for catching a fall or rappelling! Nothing like having your hand get pumped on rappel with 2000' of air beneath you.

^^^Yes.

Even on 15 pitch roues that descend by rappel, folks don't haul packs. Either climb with a small pack on, or, leave it at the base.

Another thing to mention...if you use a tag line, consider that you'll probably be rigging your pull side on the tag line (you don't want that knot migrating and the ends of your ropes unmatched). If you hang up your lead rope, pulling down the tag line, what you gonna climb back up on? 6mm static? Bad idea jeans.

What route?

I have no intention of hauling a pack/bag. I don't know where that idea came from...

This particular route is Meteorit, on Cheselen, Melchtal Valley, Switzerland. Some of the routes are listed here on MP, but there are hundreds of routes in the area and MP only has like 5 haha. I plan on doing a bunch of them. Not just this one, among others around the world when I travel. :)

Anyway, I think twins is probably a better option than hauling. I use a Petzl Reverso 4, which says it's good down to 7.5mm ropes.

I don't use my 10.2mm rope ever. So I might just sell it and get another, skinnier rope. So I'll have the option I guess.

Thanks

A reverso will work perfectly on skinny twins - I have used it with Mammut Twilight 7.5s and have had no problems.

Good looking area!

If you see this description:

Descent is by straightforward abseil.

Usually means it was written by a UK climber...and they're probably climbing on twins...(ha ha).

If you're using the Filidor Plaisir guidebooks, shout out to local SLC climber Jimmy G for the translation into English in that series of guidebooks. Spot on!

In my humble, moderately experienced opinion a 70m 10.2 and a 60m 9.8 is a ton of rope to drag up a route. I'll second the skinny tagline idea... A lot of times on long routes I use a 70m lead line (9.0 in my case) and a bring one of my 7.8 half/twin ropes as a second rope to rappel on. I then rappel on both strands. Seems to work really well. I also agree with not having the second bring up the tag line/other rope, if the leader brings it up and it gets stuck or whatnot, the second can deal with it. In my case my 70m also can be used as a twin/half with the other rope which provides a huge amount of versatility...

obviously this option doesn't necessarily apply to your current ropes but just food for thought

Brian in SLC wrote:Good looking area! If you see this description: Descent is by straightforward abseil. Usually means it was written by a UK climber...and they're probably climbing on twins...(ha ha). If you're using the Filidor Plaisir guidebooks, shout out to local SLC climber Jimmy G for the translation into English in that series of guidebooks. Spot on!

Good to know, thanks!

Yeah, it's a beautiful area! I just got back from there a few days ago. Climbed at Bonistock. But saw all these multi-pitches and really want to do them. We didn't have the time or the ropes to do them the other day. So I'm planning on going back.

I'm actually using the PDF guide you can download from the Melchsee-Frutt Ski Resort website. They own and manage the entire area: melchsee-frutt.ch/en/summer…

Here's Cheselen: melchsee-frutt.ch/wp-conten…

A lot of the rappels are out in thin air. There are fixed ropes in place that you attach to so you can get back into the wall.

abeach wrote:In my humble, moderately experienced opinion a 70m 10.2 and a 60m 9.8 is a ton of rope to drag up a route. I'll second the skinny tagline idea... A lot of times on long routes I use a 70m lead line (9.0 in my case) and a bring one of my 7.8 half/twin ropes as a tag line. Seems to work really well. I also agree with not having the second bring up the tag line, if the leader brings it up and it gets stuck or whatnot, the second can deal with it. In my case my 70m also can be used as a twin/half with the other rope which provides a huge amount of versatility... obviously this option doesn't necessarily apply to your current ropes but just food for thought

Yeah, I really don't want to haul up a 70m 10.2mm rope. Very heavy. At the very least, I'm going to sell my 10.2 and get something thinner, regardless.

But for these sort of multipitches, I'm thinking either 7.Xmm twins or climb on a single 9.Xmm and haul up another, similarly thin rope.

Sophisticated multi pitch area...

Awesome. That's hilarious.

How's the hang? Accommodations reasonable or spendy (I've been next door in Grimsel/Andermatt)?

'Nother place for "the list".

Thanks!

Edit to add: if you have the baggage room, having a fat single and set of twins is nice. Otherwise...thin single and a twin works well.

Brian in SLC wrote:Sophisticated multi pitch area... Awesome. That's hilarious. How's the hang? Accommodations reasonable or spendy (I've been next door in Grimsel/Andermatt)? 'Nother place for "the list". Thanks!

We stayed at an airbnb in Biel/Bienne, which was nice. But it's a 2-hour drive if I remember correctly. When I go back, I'll try to find a place closer. Maybe Kerns or Luzern or something. The Melchsee-Frutt ski resort has cabins and shacks and hutts and stuff. But they're probably super expensive, like everything else in Switzerland.