School in Laramie?

JNE wrote: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" -Shakespeare Who pays the bills in wyo? In other words, who makes most of the jobs in wyo now and in the recent past? Where does any state surplus of funds come from? Who funds the majority of the Hathaway scholarship?

Well, 29% of Wyoming's revenue comes from mineral taxes. The other 71% from other sources.

So the answer would be the majority comes from sources other than mineral taxes...

I received a good education there, which led to an excellent job, from which I was able to retire at age 44 - and still retired and not living under a bridge after 17 years. I'm sorry to hear about the drama going on at the university.

RobC2 wrote:I worked there at the UW 3 years plus, while there no one ever got a single pay raise ...

I've taken about 25 credit hours of college courses in Colorado and often heard the same from professors here. My girlfriend worked at CSU and we heard similar gripes from professors there:

CSU freezing of salaries and hiring.

RobC2 wrote:The WY state legislature sees little value in higher education and it shows...

I disagree with you on this one:

State Funding for Higher Education

RobC2 wrote:cops, state patrol, Laramie Police, Albany County Sheriff all vying to hand out speeding tickets 287 south of town is one of the most notorious speed traps in the nation.

287 is a notorious speed trap because of the amount of carnage which has happened on that stretch of road - for a long, long, time. It doesn't have a higher accident rate than other roads, but an accident is twice as likely to be fatal. For example, in 2001, 8 members of the UW cross country team were killed. I think the increased enforcement is justified, or do you think the carnage should be allowed to continue?

RobC2 wrote:Winters are beyond dismal, the wind incessant and madding

How ungrateful for all the free conditioning for Himalayan high-altitude climbing weather conditions!

RobC2 wrote:I'd look for a school where the state government acknowledges the value of research and higher education

This might be a bit hard to do - see my previous chart. And, contrary to what you say, Wyoming was going opposite of the trend nationwide:

Trend in Higher Education Funding

RobC2 wrote: a bunch of cretinous creationist reactionaries

Are we taking a few steps down the bigoted misanthropy road?

You obviously had a very rough time at U.W., but don't paint everyone with the same brush or you are guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing others of.

Arlo F Niederer wrote:Well, 29% of Wyoming's revenue comes from mineral taxes. The other 71% from other sources.

Source?

Remember that resource extraction is currently down in Wyoming since fracking is the rage and coal not so much (hence the funding cuts). That is why I referred to revenues both now and in the past. FYI, revenues in Wyoming are obtained almost entirely through the fossil fuel industry. They are then doled out as state funds during times of need (like now).

Also remember that most of the employment is through the resource extraction industry, so even taxes gathered from "regular sources" are largely attributable to the mineral extraction industry.

Arlo F Niederer wrote: This might be a bit hard to do - see my previous chart. And, contrary to what you say, Wyoming was going opposite of the trend nationwide:

Yes, it has been firmly established that lots of state funds get funneled into UW for the purposes of expanding higher education with respect to resource extraction. This in no way means that UW cares in any way about higher education for its intrinsic benefits. Rather, it strongly makes the already exhaustively argued case that UW loves that resource extraction, as well as the funds which come with it.

Try, try, try again. Your over your limit of three, but you might as well dig your hole a little deeper ;)

JNE wrote: Source?

U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis:

Percentage of Wyoming Revenue by Industry

If you do a little of your own research you will find testimony from the governor's office that the percentage has been around 20% but has been as high as 29%.

JNE wrote: Also remember that most of the employment is through the resource extraction industry,

You don't have a clue what you are talking about! Statistics from Wyoming Workforce Statistics, which has 2014 actuals:

Wyoming Employment 2014

Since you seem unable to understand data, this chart shows that resource extraction industry is only the 5th largest employer in Wyoming. And this was near the peak of Oil and Gas prices:

Oil Prices

JNE wrote: Try, try, try again. Your over your limit of three, but you might as well dig your hole a little deeper ;)

Somebody has dug a hole, and it ain't me!

We've hijacked Christopher's thread with political bullshit. I'm done contributing to the hijack...

Arlo F Niederer wrote: U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis: If you do a little of your own research you will find testimony from the governor's office that the percentage has been around 20% but has been as high as 29%.

Yes, in 2012 the fracking boom was well under way. Thus you did in fact cite a non-representative year...

Arlo F Niederer wrote:You don't have a clue what you are talking about! Statistics from Wyoming Workforce Statistics, which has 2014 actuals:

2014 actuals? Lol, I guess you are right, in 2014 (after coal had tanked and fracking took over) Wyoming got most of its resources from "other sources". It is also worth noting to the critically thinking challenged such as yourself that in any economy, "regular economic activity" makes up the bulk of the economy, at any point in time. The fact that the resource extraction industry in Wyoming gets above a couple percentage points means a LOT of the budget is directly influenced by that industry. Remember, this influence is based not on how much of the economy an industry occupies, but how much that industry occupies relative to other industries. In Wyoming resource extraction absolutely dominates, as you pointed out. It is also worth noting that the profit margins on resource extraction are on the high end, so the budgetary and financial surplus brought about from those industries puts them at a distinct advantage in terms of financial influence, especially when they make up a significant portion of the budget.

Arlo F Niederer wrote:Since you seem unable to understand data, this chart shows that resource extraction industry is only the 5th largest employer in Wyoming. And this was near the peak of Oil and Gas prices:

See above...

Arlo F Niederer wrote:Somebody has dug a hole, and it ain't me! We've hijacked Christopher's thread with political bullshit. I'm done contributing to the hijack...

Yes, you have dug the hole you set out to dig, got the shit on your face that you set out to put there, and exhaustively made the case regarding the culture in Wyoming, particularly with respect to the funding at UW (and the subsequent influence of this culture), using yourself as the example. If we really want to make this country great again, we will all decide to do something real (ostracize you, ridicule you, generally avoid you) about people like yourself who can't make an argument, but continue to run their mouths. Your only saving grace is that the person who made the comment regarding UW's administration and its compulsive obsession with sexually and socially degrading their administrative assistants (and any other woman they can put into a vulnerable spot), deleted their comment. I too would take my ball and go home...

Christian: If the petroleum industry/resource extraction is your cup of tea, you really can't do much better than UW, especially with respect to the overall cost of school. If, however, these are not your people, no matter how cheap that degree is, it is not worth the money. You will have to "get in line" or else be used to "signal" about who not to be and what not to value. Even if another option is 3-4 times the price, unless you have your heart set on a career extracting resources, it is a better holistic use of your time and money. UW produces people for the resource extraction industry, and people who make other industries and aspects of American culture welcoming to the resource extraction industry, and no one else.

Arlo F Niederer wrote:I received a good education there, which led to an excellent job, from which I was able to retire at age 44 - and still retired and not living under a bridge after 17 years. I'm sorry to hear about the drama going on at the university. I've taken about 25 credit hours of college courses in Colorado and often heard the same from professors here. My girlfriend worked at CSU and we heard similar gripes from professors there: I disagree with you on this one: 287 is a notorious speed trap because of the amount of carnage which has happened on that stretch of road - for a long, long, time. It doesn't have a higher accident rate than other roads, but an accident is twice as likely to be fatal. For example, in 2001, 8 members of the UW cross country team were killed. I think the increased enforcement is justified, or do you think the carnage should be allowed to continue? How ungrateful for all the free conditioning for Himalayan high-altitude climbing weather conditions! This might be a bit hard to do - see my previous chart. And, contrary to what you say, Wyoming was going opposite of the trend nationwide: Are we taking a few steps down the bigoted misanthropy road? You obviously had a very rough time at U.W., but don't paint everyone with the same brush or you are guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing others of.

Your experiences in the 80s or 90s DO NOT reflect the reality now. Wyoming's high per-student expenditures work out to impressive building projects, a free copy of Microsoft office for every student, and high pay for administrators. It does not mean that faculty and staff receive regular raises, or that vacant positions are filled, or that important services are provided. In other words, that high expenditure has sweet fuck all to do with the quality of education.

We have a governor-mandated, "public art approval board" to sign off on art exhibitions on campus, which is staffed entirely by energy and mineral industry execs, with the expressed purpose of preventing the exhibition of art that might cause students to consider whether the state's addiction to extractive industry might have a negative impact on Wyoming's natural environment. The sculpture titled "Carbon Sink" was removed in the middle of the night to prevent protests over how corrupt the process was.

Research professors are being told to increase their teaching load to the point that their research becomes impossible. Meanwhile, we're spending millions on training facilities for a consistently lackluster football program. Hundreds of private sector jobs are lost, billions in tax income are lost, because the state refuses to invest in non-extractive industry (or raises taxes on green energy with the unstated purpose of forcing it out). Literally the only state employees getting a raise this year are the governor's personal staff.

Wyoming's actual priorities are so out-of-touch with its needs that I cannot say that getting an education here is a good decision.

Woah, that went south FAST!

I'm just going to go back to the quality of an education at UW and skip all the squabbling about the makeup of the economy of WY...

A few of you pointed out that UW is a major step down from IU in terms of quality of education, prestige, whatever you may call it; I'm aware of this and I'm currently considering that when weighing my options for where to go to school next year. The major breaking point for me at IU is that is FAR from any good climbing.

Keep in mind that, while raised a Midwesterner (60% of my life between MI, OH, and IN), I spent the last two years as a full-blown rock bum (living in a cave in various national parks, hitch hiking from crag to crag, at one point my networth was $16 and a rack). Six months in Squamish, a YEAR in Yosemite (I got a job to make it work), and another six months dotted between CO, UT, and northern California. I love big granite, and I miss it so.

Here in Indiana, my local crag is a road cut called "unlikely wall". The majority of the sport routes climb up the drill holes left behind after the blasting. There's a handful of boulder problems from v0-v4, and a small cave 1/4 mi away that has some bouldering. 1 hour away is Shoals IN. All two of the groundfalls I've taken in my climbing career have been there. Utter choss, short, and mungy. The details are really unimportant; what I'm trying to illustrate here is a climber so desperate for rock he is literally willing to climb anything that MIGHT be able to bear his weight in order to keep in fighting shape for when I inevitably get back to the mountains.

The good stuff is in KY, a 4.5 hour drive away. I've been able to make it out there twice since school began, which, in comparison to the 6 days a week of climbing I was doing in Yosemite, seems absolutely pathetic. It's a constant struggle for me to stay motivated enough to climb AND do well in school. Quite frankly, I think spending another 3.5 years in Indiana simply is not an option for me.

UW on the other hand, is 15 mins from Vedauwoo, 2 hours from estes park, 3 hours to most of the front range, or, if you drive in the other direction, Lander. Right now, that high-plains winter brutality sounds like heaven if only there is rock or ice nearby that I can climb.

Am I totally out of touch with reality, or is paying approximately the same for a far lesser (at least in terms of prestige) education worth it in this case?

Christopher Smaling wrote:Am I totally out of touch with reality, or is paying approximately the same for a far lesser (at least in terms of prestige) education worth it in this case?

what do you want to be when you grow up? i mean, do you intend to use the chemistry degree? how? do you just need a "technical degree" to move into something else? graduate school?

if you're career driven, i suggest you suck it up and deal for a few years. enjoy the climbing gym, take a few trips, and get into the things that are fun to do around Bloomington. cycling would be my choice. trying to force climbing to be your only thing isn't going to work in Indiana, as you're already finding out. this whole question is a long game/short game thing.

Hey Chris,

Your education and your abilities are what you make them. UW is a good school, and there is no loss in prestige by going there. I studied education and environment and natural resources at the Haub school. I worked for my Masters and I was able to get a good job at a strong (albiet, eastern) university working in their museum of natural history for a decidedly non-resource extraction promoting project. When applying for the job, the university did not look down on me for having gone to UW; rather, they judged me on my ability to speak fluently about and work well in my field.

Again, your education is what you make it. There are messed up politics and bullshit everywhere you go, whether UW, IU, or wherever. Your experience will be defined by you and you alone. There are good folks at UW, and Laramie is a pleasant town close to world class climbing and skiing. Good luck in your search.

ton wrote: what do you want to be when you grow up? i mean, do you intend to use the chemistry degree? how? do you just need a "technical degree" to move into something else? graduate school? if you're career driven, i suggest you suck it up and deal for a few years. enjoy the climbing gym, take a few trips, and get into the things that are fun to do around Bloomington. cycling would be my choice. trying to force climbing to be your only thing isn't going to work in Indiana, as you're already finding out. this whole question is a long game/short game thing.

"Career driven" is not a phrase I would use to describe myself.

Growing up, my game plan was to be a classical musician (and I actually began studying at IU-Jacobs School of Music, which is one of the best ranked music programs in the country, when I was 15), but then I broke my wrist, spent a year rehabbing to the point where I could play again, and decided that that probably wasn't a wise basket to place my eggs in. Other than that, my dream was to work as a researcher in Antarctica. I grew up reading about Shackleton, Hillary, Amundsen and the like, and that was what drove me to mountaineering, and eventually, rock climbing.

Like many in my generation, I'm far less driven by the thought of a six figure salary than I am of the idea of a flexible career that lets me work as I want and travel as I want. I picked chemistry only because it is something I have a natural aptitude for, and find interesting.

Christopher Smaling wrote: "Career driven" is not a phrase I would use to describe myself. Like many in my generation, I'm far less driven by the thought of a six figure salary than I am of the idea of a flexible career that lets me work as I want and travel as I want. I picked chemistry only because it is something I have a natural aptitude for, and find interesting.

fair enough. i was asking because most chemistry majors i know (i was one) tend be heading somewhere specific with it. and in cases like going to medschool or gradschool or whatever, pedigree matters.

as that's not your path... Wyoming would be a fine start. you might also consider Colorado School of Mines or Fort Lewis or Utah State for your purposes if you don't think much of Laramie. all of those have more outdoors opportunities without some of the detriments, in my opinion. Laramie's just a bit too rural for my tastes, but you may love it.

Christopher Smaling wrote: "Career driven" is not a phrase I would use to describe myself. Growing up, my game plan was to be a classical musician (and I actually began studying at IU-Jacobs School of Music, which is one of the best ranked music programs in the country, when I was 15), but then I broke my wrist, spent a year rehabbing to the point where I could play again, and decided that that probably wasn't a wise basket to place my eggs in. Other than that, my dream was to work as a researcher in Antarctica. I grew up reading about Shackleton, Hillary, Amundsen and the like, and that was what drove me to mountaineering, and eventually, rock climbing. Like many in my generation, I'm far less driven by the thought of a six figure salary than I am of the idea of a flexible career that lets me work as I want and travel as I want. I picked chemistry only because it is something I have a natural aptitude for, and find interesting.

An aptitude for chemistry, crossed with classical music, crossed with school at 15...sounds bright and talented to me. If you aren't solely driven by money, you could be a great hire for a private school, as a teacher. Passing our passions on to others is a very worthy pursuit!

"South" is one I recommend to people often. Great read! :-)

OLH

Christopher Smaling wrote:Like many in my generation, I'm far less driven by the thought of a six figure salary than I am of the idea of a flexible career that lets me work as I want and travel as I want. I picked chemistry only because it is something I have a natural aptitude for, and find interesting.

Then, unless UW has changed its general policy in the last few years, then no offense but you are not the type of person they are looking for. They want consumers who understand the value of getting the GDP maxed out etc, etc, etc. That being said, if you are young and more or less fresh out of high school, and you keep your mouth shut and avoid troublesome/gossipy individuals, you can likely sneak through for an undergrad just fine. If you decide to take school further than undergrad, then your undergraduate institution will be the source of your references, coursework, and pre-pre-professional social interactions, so it is generally considered wise to seek an institution which is a good overall fit. Good luck picking a school.

Christopher Smaling wrote: Am I totally out of touch with reality, or is paying approximately the same for a far lesser (at least in terms of prestige) education worth it in this case?

If what has been discussed/argued here is true, then you may be looking at a lesser education in prestige, ability to get a job, and indeed quality of the education itself. You could very possibly end up kicking yourself for taking loans to pay for that.

And you certainly will be taking loans. With financial aid situation being what it is in the US, you can't plan as if you will get enough scholarship money to pay for the entirety of of tuition, books, room and board unless you're getting playing football or basketball or golf or something. The system relies on loans instead of Pell grants nowadays, and things are a lot more expensive than they were even 10 years ago.

I'm lucky enough to come from a family that can afford to spend ~$13k a year for my education, so assuming I get SOME scholarships, UW is not going to leave me destitute for years following graduation.

It seems like people are 50/50 split between hating on UW for being tied to oil/being bureaucratic/having a shitty culture, and liking it. Quite frankly, I don't think the culture of the administration matters all to much. At IU, we do have a diverse range of donors, but the administrative bureaucracy is still insanely maddening. I expect no different at UW.

In terms of the quality of the education, I think I agree with whoever said that your undergraduate education is what you make of it, and where you go to grad school ultimately mattering more.

What does matter to me is the culture of the student body. Is it really as conservative as many of you are making it out to be?

Christopher Smaling wrote:I'm lucky enough to come from a family that can afford to spend ~$13k a year for my education

If you are wise, you will use this to your advantage and find a school, irrespective of price, which will maximize the probability of you either finding a job or having solid references (who actually like and approve of you as a person) for graduate school by finding a school which is an overall fit.

Christopher Smaling wrote:What does matter to me is the culture of the student body. Is it really as conservative as many of you are making it out to be?

This culture should matter. Ask yourself, where you will be in five years if:

1) You go to a school where, due to who you are/what you value, you will never be allowed to be the best student in any class, get the highest grade, or date the pretty girl, and you have to avoid 90% of the student population in order to avoid giving info away to gossipy miscreants intent on giving the administration as many reasons as possible to make your life suck.

2) You go to a school with no real prestige or anything, but you are the smartest person there, the faculty enjoy you just for who you are, and you have as many friends as you could care to have, and you get to date the girl whos eyes twinkle at you.

Good luck with your decision.

If you're in it for the education IU is pretty top notch. Wyoming is .......

Christopher:

Glad to see this got back to your education. You are wise beyond your years - there are politics, drawbacks, and people with agendas wherever you go - even here on Mountain Project!

People underestimate the impact of the cost of a college education. If you went to the highly ranked chemistry program at CU you would graduate with over $160,000 in debt assuming the $13,000 per year your family can pay. Instead of encountering the redneck end of the spectrum you will encounter the other end of the spectrum and a huge homeless population. $160,000 is like having a house payment - minus the house. The good thing is you are getting a STEMI degree, which lead to higher paying jobs.

I've lived many places and used to whine about this and that. But I've learned to look past all of that and take advantage of the best of what a particular area offers. Sounds like you have that attitude, and it will serve you well and you will have a happier life.

Visit Laramie and UW and make the decision that is best for you. You certainly have seen the whole spectrum...

If you decide to go to UW or another front range school, my door is open. You can come crash here in Colorado Springs and go climbing with my girlfriend and I or whoever you want. When the snow clears at Vedauwoo I will come to Laramie and show you around - I've been climbing there since 1974!

JNE wrote: If you are wise, you will use this to your advantage and find a school, irrespective of price, which will maximize the probability of you either finding a job or having solid references (who actually like and approve of you as a person) for graduate school by finding a school which is an overall fit. This culture should matter. Ask yourself, where you will be in five years if: 1) You go to a school where, due to who you are/what you value, you will never be allowed to be the best student in any class, get the highest grade, or date the pretty girl, and you have to avoid 90% of the student population in order to avoid giving info away to gossipy miscreants intent on giving the administration as many reasons as possible to make your life suck. 2) You go to a school with no real prestige or anything, but you are the smartest person there, the faculty enjoy you just for who you are, and you have as many friends as you could care to have, and you get to date the girl whos eyes twinkle at you. Good luck with your decision.

Another part of the reason I want to get away from IU so badly is that I do not enjoy the student culture here at all and very strongly feel like an "outsider". Most of the students here are heavily emotionally invested in school sports, which I could not less about. IU is consistently in the top 5 party schools in the US; that simply is not my scene. There is a small outdoors program, but it is small, generally underfunded, and much more hiking oriented. Yes, it has the big 10 perks, but I'm not sure they are worth it to me.

It seems like UW has a BIG outdoors community. This matters to me a lot. Could I afford it (or if I were willing to go into substantial amounts of debt), there are plenty of schools that have excellent academics and excellent access to the outdoors.

Arlo F Niederer wrote:Christopher: Glad to see this got back to your education. You are wise beyond your years - there are politics, drawbacks, and people with agendas wherever you go - even here on Mountain Project! People underestimate the impact of the cost of a college education. If you went to the highly ranked chemistry program at CU you would graduate with over $160,000 in debt assuming the $13,000 per year your family can pay. Instead of encountering the redneck end of the spectrum you will encounter the other end of the spectrum and a huge homeless population. $160,000 is like having a house payment - minus the house. The good thing is you are getting a STEMI degree, which lead to higher paying jobs. I've lived many places and used to whine about this and that. But I've learned to look past all of that and take advantage of the best of what a particular area offers. Sounds like you have that attitude, and it will serve you well and you will have a happier life. Visit Laramie and UW and make the decision that is best for you. You certainly have seen the whole spectrum... If you decide to go to UW or another front range school, my door is open. You can come crash here in Colorado Springs and go climbing with my girlfriend and I or whoever you want. When the snow clears at Vedauwoo I will come to Laramie and show you around - I've been climbing there since 1974!

+1,000

I really appreciate this response. When I was 18 years old, I actually spent a good half year or so living in Boulder in working at the REI there (long story how I got that job before I'd ever set foot in Boulder, but I did). I cut my teeth on the climbs around Boulder. I moved to CO with the intention of establishing residency and going to school, but I quickly realized I really could not afford to live inside of boulder on a (more or less) minimum wage salary, and didn't have a car so I could live outside of the city. It wasn't worth the struggle to make ends meet, and when my hours got cut at REI I bailed to Canada and spent the next six months living out of a tent in Squamish. Boulder is nice, but it isn't nice for those who are young and broke.

I'm pretty strongly considering taking next semester away from IU to go get my EMT-b at a community college in Bishop, and I'll roll through Laramie on the way out there and check it out. If I roll through the front range, I'll make sure to hit you up!