Belay devices for multipitch

Mike A. Lewis wrote:Here is a review I did on the DMM Pivot. It is focused on the Pivot, but you may find some useful information... alpinist.com/doc/web16f/ms-…

Thanks for the review, Mike. And for spelling "brake" correctly. :)

Interesting...never heard of people rappelling off Grigris in multipitch scenarios. In fact, the only time I've seen people use them to rappel was for cleaning sport routes, and I thought they were nuts.

...and yeah, the Pivot is by far the best tube-style device.

As a half-rope user, a Grigri isn't an option, but I like the CT Alpine Up, which is an assisted braking device for half ropes. For long multipitch routes (with the half-ropes, which not many people think worth the weight and possible faff but which I like anyway), I think the best combination is the Alpine Up and a DMM pivot. (You can use the Up for a guide belay, but the Pivot handles better.) Both devices allow for rappelling (with this system, there's no need to tie off the rappel lines so that the Grigri person can rappel on a single strand). The Up locks reliably (on 8.5mm halves) when released, and so serves for the first person down. The second raps without a backup but with a fireman's belay from the first person.

Assisted braking devices like the Up probably raise anchor loads in a way similar to the Grigri. The stats from Petzl I posted above mention the Reverso gives loads up to 30% less than the Grigri, but it might be worth turning these numbers around to note that the Grigri loads are 50% higher than the Reverso loads for fall factors approaching 1 (these are nasty falls).

Load-reducing tactics like jumping are often impractical for multipitch belay stances, so you can't count on being able to mitigate the 50% higher loads.

If you are dinking around with small wires and your potential falls are nearing FF 1, the Grigri and its assisted-braking brethren ought to be cause for some worry. For more robust protection scenarios, the advantages of assisted braking devices might still be decisive, especially if you mostly don't fall anyway.

Mike A. Lewis wrote:Here is a review I did on the DMM Pivot. It is focused on the Pivot, but you may find some useful information... alpinist.com/doc/web16f/ms-…

"On the positive side, the Pivot (and Reverso) offers more friction and holding power than the ATC Guide, especially when you're using thinner ropes, 9.2mm in diameter and smaller (DMM says the Pivot can be used for ropes 7.3mm to 11mm)."

We measured less holding power through the rope range than the ATC XP Guide, roughly 10%. The Pivot lies between the ATC and the Reverso when it comes to stopping power so a good product but still not the best. The lower-profile design makes this almost inevitable.

With the new grigri so light, I've been playing more with it on bigger routes. But I also bring the ATC Guide for the rappel. For the climbing I do, it's not too big a deal to bring the extra device.

An ATC Guide is a dumb thing for me, really, since I don't use guide mode for 99% of my multi pitch climbing. I'm a big fan of the redirect instead. I find that partners belaying off the anchor for guide mode or on the grigri wind up wasting a bit of time setting up for lead belaying, whereas with the redirect I am immediately ready to belay if we're swinging leads. Granted, that's just my own bias, I'm sure it's good either way, I just notice those seconds ticking by more.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the mammut smart in more than a cursory way. Imho it does it all pretty flawlessly. Autoblock on lead belay, guide mode, rap on two ropes with a built in backup, no moving parts. The only flaw I can come up with is its ugly as sin, a bit bulky and kinda requires one of those belay biners with a gate to keep it from cross loading. Used to go gri with ATC guide,. Now it's the smart all the way.

Mustard:. Redirect is fine and dandy most of the time but realize that you are putting twice the force on the anchor if your follower falls (shouldn't be an issue but it's worth knowing) and setting up any kind of haul or escaping the belay is infinitely simpler if they are direct on the anchor. That 20 seconds could save you hours potentially. If it's easy ground, whatever,. But if there's a chance of falling into space? I'd consider going direct.

Even on long remote climbs, my general system is to have one autolocker(usually my AlpineUp), and one ATC Guide and trade them off so that the leader is always belated by the autolocker and the second by the ATCG. I really like knowing I'm going to get caught if I fall, even if my belayer is fiddling with their shoes or gets bombed by rock fall.

Ted Pinson wrote:Interesting...never heard of people rappelling off Grigris in multipitch scenarios. In fact, the only time I've seen people use them to rappel was for cleaning sport routes, and I thought they were nuts. ...and yeah, the Pivot is by far the best tube-style device.

I've done the grigri to rap before, the first climber went on one fixed strand. We just tied off that strand at the rope with a locker to the anchor so it wasn't wearing through the aluminum rap ring. Second climber rappelled on a gigi with two biners. It really didn't add much time (if any) to setting up the first rap with an auto block.

climbing friend,

grigri, so you are smoking blunts and eating someone else's sandwich as you belay.

I have usedtye 2 grgri or gri gri/ova,plate

I like this system.

I use a Mammut Smart Alpine (With a gated carabiner that prevents it from cross-loading) for anything and everything. A smooth autoblock, prussik-free rappel device, damn-near autolocking and very smooth lead belaying, a great piece to have if a pulley needs to be rigged etc.

I don't spend any time considering other devices. The only flaw I'll admit that the Smart has is lowering a second when in autoblock mode - but that's par for the course for autoblocks really, and I'll make whatever adjustment I need if I expect a second to possibly need a lower. It also sucks with higher than 10.1 diameter ropes, but why would you use one?

Phill T wrote:Mustard:. Redirect is fine and dandy most of the time but realize that you are putting twice the force on the anchor if your follower falls (shouldn't be an issue but it's worth knowing) and setting up any kind of haul or escaping the belay is infinitely simpler if they are direct on the anchor. That 20 seconds could save you hours potentially. If it's easy ground, whatever,. But if there's a chance of falling into space? I'd consider going direct.

If I doubt the anchor at all, I go off my harness.

I don't know, I'm a simple guy I guess and just hope I don't have to escape the belay when somebody is following? Shit! You've had to do that?!

John Wilder wrote: 1) You really shouldn't doubt your anchor 99.9% of the time.... 2) He's right- if the anchor is iffy, it's actually better to hang the belay device- lower loads *and* better if things get weird.

I actually don't doubt my anchors 99.9% of the time, though sometimes with the configuration of the belay I don't redirect and that's generally when I belay off the harness. That is probably more accurate a statement.

Really, we're taking preferences and then lining up the stats when folks have gotten up the same terrain you and I have with hip belays and swami belts.

I'm not sure I believe you that loading the anchor directly is better or even that different from off the harness in that dire anchor situation, nor have I had so much problem with a follower to where I thought, boy, I need to get outta here, things is getting cray-cray! If I were a guide or something, maybe, but as somebody who generally tries to climb with people as strong or stronger, I've never had this 'uge problem you both seem to know so well.

We're all talking about top rope belays, right? Followers? Low forces involved? Come on, this is all preference. If you like to tech weenie out, that's your deal, but don't act like not going direct off the anchor is some big hazard, LOL!

calebmmallory wrote:DMM Pivot. ATC style but better.

I was recently involved in a scary incident involving the pivot. Not saying this will happen to you, but i thought I'd mention it:

The leader was belaying up two seconds (double ropes). I let the other second climb first because I was the stronger climber and could hang out if he got stuck. At one point he fell off for a 1/2 second, then fell 15 feet straight past me! I thought he was a goner until the rope got taught again. Soon after I considered myself lucky that a full grown man didn't fall on my head and snap my neck. Only a traversing overhang prevented this.

Apparently, the initial fall had pulled the pivot onto a rock and engaged the release angle.

I use a trango cinch for belaying on multipitch. I find the extra weight (less than a grigri2) is more than compensated by the ease of belaying a 2nd and the fact I can clip and unclip it from a weighted rope (the only device that can?). If I ever need to escape the belay or setup a 3:1 using a tiblock (if my 2nd can't get past a crux) it's dead easy.

+1 Alpine Smart: the swiss army knife of belay devices. Does everything, just not quite as well as a more specialized device.

Haven't yet tried the Jul or other similar devices.

Colonel Mustard wrote: I'm not sure I believe you that loading the anchor directly is better or even that different from off the harness in that dire anchor situation,

look up the 'pulley effect'. Its very real if a bit difficult to visualize: How much weight is on the top draw after a lead fall has come to rest where the belayer was pulled off the ground (both climbers are suspended but stationary)? How is it different if the belayer is still on the ground but the climber is suspended?

Again, its your anchor, it damn well better be able to hold 2 people no problem, but its worth knowing the forces involved with different belay setups. And yeah, I've had to haul my partner who was hanging in space on two occasions. Was damn glad I was in direct (grigri at the times) so setting it up was no big deal!

Phill T wrote: look up the 'pulley effect'. Its very real if a bit difficult to visualize: How much weight is on the top draw after a lead fall has come to rest where the belayer was pulled off the ground (both climbers are suspended but stationary)? How is it different if the belayer is still on the ground but the climber is suspended? Again, its your anchor, it damn well better be able to hold 2 people no problem, but its worth knowing the forces involved with different belay setups. And yeah, I've had to haul my partner who was hanging in space on two occasions. Was damn glad I was in direct (grigri at the times) so setting it up was no big deal!

Pulley effect for belaying directly off the harness? Really? Where's the pulley? Or are you saying the pulley of the device at the anchor is better? Worse? Sounds like we need a physics degree to sort this all out, eh?

Hauling a partner like a bag of shit sounds awful.

John Wilder wrote: If you're belaying directly off your harness with no re-direct through the anchor, that just sounds super uncomfortable unless you're sitting on a large ledge so the direction of pull isn't straight down. While I have done this in the past for various reasons, I tend to make this choice as a last resort.

Okay. I didn't realize I needed to suit your comfort zone. I mentioned my preference, couching it as such.

I have used ATC,Reverso, alpine smart, megajul and Gri Gri. As a lead belayer I used to think the Alpine smart was the best but with some new interesting techniques such as mini trax seconding and using a micro to manage thw rope I think the GriGri is by far superior to any tube style device, assisted locking or not. If your worried about extra force on the pieces tell your belayer to give a softer catch. I have never been in a position where as a belayer it was impossible to give a softer catch. I assume those Gri Gri numbers are for a static anchored GriGri not a human attached one. Humans are great in absorbing g force through movement.