Response to Flash Foxy & Outside Magazine Article

DTC wrote: just because the data might be incomplete doesn't mean we should ignore it all and assume men are equally as likely to be victimized. Even if the estimates are off by double or triple, it's still nowhere close to the numbers for women.

Its not a competition. Abhorrence of rape is not a zero-sum game between the genders.

DTC (or PC principal) wrote: 1. Maybe it is sexist. Are you doing anything to change how women might perceive men? Other than telling them that their survey results are garbage? Either way, as privileged males, it's a very small burden to bear. 2. I have no data to answer this question, but since climbers also exist outside of the climbing community, it provides some perspective on why women might feel the way they do. Gym climbers may not necessarily be part of what some of us think of as the climbing community. Personally, I don't think the climbing community is so special that we exist outside a standard deviation of society as a whole with regards to sexism.

Yes. I am providing brilliant counterpoints and peer-reviewed, scientific evidence to this discussion to demonstrate that not all males are ignorant, ogling idiots like the ones portrayed in the study.

I said the data were garbage because there are far too many uncontrolled variables to draw any reliable conclusions from it. Thus, making accusations based on such data is unfounded. The conclusion I insinuated earlier that women are 2.5x more likely to complain about the opposite sex is equally garbage; which was my point.

A sample from a climbing gym does not reflect society as a whole. See these demographic data from 2005 (I recognize that we've seen some changes since 2005, but I couldn't find a more recent pdf):

outdoorfoundation.org/pdf/P…

We are overwhelmingly white, male, unmarried, and young; which is not a reflection of the society as a whole.

Additionally, the "study" under question had far more female participants, which doesn't even reflect the rock climbing community.

NRobl wrote: Isn't the fact that you (and the author) sterotyping all men based on the actions of a few a bit sexist?

Dunno about DTC, but the author of the Outside article isn't stereotyping all men.

Maybe this will be helpful in understanding problems with the reverse sexism argument

NRobl wrote:I don't doubt this at all, but is this a reflection of the climbing community?

Though there's no good reason to conclude that those stats aren't also representative of the climbing community, whether or not they are isn't a reflection on the existence of a problem within the climbing community. The bottom line is that women climbers are saying there's a problem (and they're not saying "all male climbers are douchebags").

Watch out for the not all men (additional illumination)

Merlin wrote: I think you're guilty of a micro aggression there Tim. The gym is a safe place, at least, it should be.

Don't downgrade my aggression to micro!

The article says, that of the men who reported micro aggressions, more than two-thirds of the micro aggressions came from other men.

Shouldn't we all align against the common enemy: assholes?

DTC wrote: No one is arguing that all men are ignorant, ogling idiots though. The problem for women is distinguishing between the good and bad guys. Knowing that 5 out of 6 chambers are unloaded in Russian Roulette doesn't really help that much if you don't know which 5. Garbage conclusions are not the same as garbage data. If you say the data is garbage, you are saying the experiences that were collected are garbage. I agree with you that it's not complete enough to say exactly how many men might be ignorant, ogling idiots or exactly how many women might be affected. The "study" simply said that some men (could be 1, 3, or 1000) were ignorant, ogling idiots, and presented ways not to be one. A study on how gender experiences differ does not need to have its participants reflect the male/female distribution of the overall community. Aside from volunteer bias, the 1000 women who responded actually represent the female climbing community better than the 500 men represent the male climbing community.

The implications of the article are that men are ignorant, ogling idiots. Quote from article in question (first sentence):

"It happens all the time. Someone assumes you’re waiting to climb an easy route. Someone sprays you down with bad beta while staring at your sports bra. Someone assumes your belay buddy is your boyfriend—who also taught you how to climb. And this someone, in my experience, is almost always a guy."

I am not saying the experiences collected were garbage. The experiences collected were likely factual. I am saying there is no way to generate a valid conclusion from the data (anyone can answer and a survey of that nature will attract people with biased opinions; also it could be the 20% of people cause 80% of the problems type scenario) and furthermore that the data do not represent the population outside of the climbing community as you implied (see demographic data posted previously). If you have garbage data, your conclusions will subsequently be garbage if based on that data.

I could easily present in an article ways for women not to nag so much or act bitchy (and even produce a similar survey where a majority of men respond about how they are affected by this behavior; note that if I put out a survey asking questions about these problems, it would naturally attract men that have a stronger opinion on the issue), which is very presumptive and condescending to the female population as a whole. I would immediately be labeled a sexist a--hole as well. However, for some reason, it's okay to make these generalizations and speak condescendingly if it's coming from the other side.

Women have dealt with a lot of bullshit for a very long time. It was not okay. Things are shifting now. I have spent most of my life in female-dominated fields (anthropology, veterinary medicine) and have experienced being a gender minority. In no way am I saying that this equates to the experiences of women. I am saying however, that tides are turning and I tend to personally get shit on a lot by women, as we did to them in the past. While we may somewhat deserve it (although note that I am not old enough to have been involved in the previous ways of gender discrimination), maybe it is better if women don't follow the same mistakes and assholishness of our forefathers?

Kent Richards wrote: Dunno about DTC, but the author of the Outside article isn't stereotyping all men. Maybe this will be helpful in understanding problems with the reverse sexism argument Though there's no good reason to conclude that those stats aren't also representative of the climbing community, whether or not they are isn't a reflection on the existence of a problem within the climbing community. The bottom line is that women climbers are saying there's a problem (and they're not saying "all male climbers are douchebags"). Watch out for the not all men (additional illumination)

quote from that article:
"No matter what definition of sexism” you’re starting with, “reverse sexism” is an invalid claim to make. If you go strictly by the dictionary definition, then a woman being prejudiced against a man is simply “sexism”, no “reverse” needed. If you go by the feminist definition, sexism is predicated on having institutional power over a group, and since women do not have that power, they cannot be sexists, reverse or otherwise."

I can assure you, I have no power over women, institutionally or otherwise. My last several bosses and nearly every person I work with is female. Thus, I can make a claim of sexism.

So...

Climbing is largely an activity pursued by men, mostly youngish.

Why do women choose to put themselves in that situation?

Here's my survey and response (data set of 1):

Ladies, how many of you enjoy climbing precisely (or at least partially) because it is one of the few activities, by and large, where you are fully welcomed, accepted, and befriended because you are a climber? Not just because you have tits?

It's a wonderful community, people. Sure, stuff happens, we aren't immune, but compared to most work places? Media? Our warped culture in general? Just walkin down the street?

Talk to your ladies, guys. I'm almost 60, graduated high school in 1975. Until about 7th grade, I had to wear a skirt to school, cause I was a girl. When I had my own business in a male dominated world, people asked all the time to speak to the boss. I stood at a bus stop, just standing there, and some poor sap came up to me saying, "harlot, harlot?" If I was walking home, more than once a car pulled over, offered a ride, and, hey, wanna make a little cash? No hottie then or now, guys. In fact, at five feet tall, they were hoping for a kid.

Talk to grandma. Might raise your eyebrows. Talk to your gf. Talk to your daughter and her friends. Talk to your college age female friends.

I'm a female who knows first hand it can be dangerous, deadly dangerous, for me out there, or even in my own home. You simply can't forget that. Does it run my life? Not at all. Keep me from climbing with you? Nooo...but. Do you have to stop and consider every time some random person on MP asks if you would like to climb? What if it was your daughter? Want her to meet a man at a remote location by her self?

And yes, there was that thread of mine, way back when, my "introduction" to some of you!

The world I have functioned in my whole working life:Just this morning I ran into the local store to grab lunch on the way to work. There were big clusters of guys in business casual all over the store. Turns out, it was a training for 200+ managers from eight western states of this chain grocer. Maybe 10 or 15 women at most.

Bought my stuff. 5 or 6 cashiers. One guy. The rest women.

So what would you conclude? Be careful. It's tricky ground! I know my answers, what are yours?

Best, Helen

Tim Lutz wrote: watch your microaggressions bro! southpark.cc.com/clips/oomp…

HA! great episode.

"I can assure you, I have no power over women, institutionally or otherwise."

And some of my best friends are black!

Thanks for sharing Helen. No doubt the world we live in isn't fair, I think we can all agree on that. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said:

Helen wrote:Ladies, how many of you enjoy climbing precisely (or at least partially) because it is one of the few activities, by and large, where you are fully welcomed, accepted, and befriended because you are a climber? Not just because you have tits? It's a wonderful community, people. Sure, stuff happens, we aren't immune, but compared to most work places? Media? Our warped culture in general? Just walking down the street?

This is what I alluded to in my introduction. This alone says we as a community are aware, doing the right thing, and making tangible progress (collectively as a community). This clearly doesn’t mean we’ve reached any sort of finish line but it should serve as a sign the community does in fact care and is trying to continually improve.

I said this earlier in response to ClimbLikeAGirl, but I’ll say it again. The way forward with this isn’t discussing what constitutes a microaggression or which gyms have safe spaces. We as a community need to start believing the best in each other and stop assuming the worst. The minute this becomes one-sided then we've failed. If something is legitimately condescending or comes across sexist, then voice how you feel on the spot and confront the person about it. If we don’t start holding people accountable for their actions, then the behavior is going to continue. Simple as that. Articles may raise awareness but individual action is what will ultimately deter further incidents.

Daniel Evans wrote: The way forward with this isn’t discussing what constitutes a microaggression or which gyms have safe spaces. We as a community need to start believing the best in each other and stop assuming the worst. The minute this becomes one-sided then we've failed.

I wish the world worked this way but unfortunately so many of the social issues plaguing society cannot be resolved by positive thinking. The reason that safe spaces exist is precisely because groups that have been historically oppressed cannot feel safe and comfortable when surrounded by the dominant majority culture. It's not our place, as white men, to tell a woman, a person of color, or an LGBT person that they should simply "stop assuming the worst".

Dismissal of the need for measures such as safe spaces is coming purely from a place of privilege and condescension. How can you tell a woman who has been sexually assaulted or harassed that she should just "believe the best" in the men who approach her?

Daniel Evans wrote: If something is legitimately condescending or comes across sexist, then voice how you feel on the spot and confront the person about it. If we don’t start holding people accountable for their actions, then the behavior is going to continue. Simple as that. Articles may raise awareness but individual action is what will ultimately deter further incidents.

At least we agree on that. But we also need to hold people accountable for actions that aren't intended to be creepy or offensive. Most importantly, we need to start holding ourselves accountable and to a higher standard of self-awareness when it comes to our interactions with historically oppressed groups.

BigRed11 wrote: It's not our place, as white men, to tell a woman, a person of color, or an LGBT person that they should simply "stop assuming the worst".

Yep, clearly White Men are the problem. Your thinking like this is just as much a problem in society.

tim wrote: Don't downgrade my aggression to micro!

-1 for disagreeing with me. +1 for me agreeing with me. I win.

Eric Carlos wrote: Yep, clearly White Men are the problem. Your thinking like this is just as much a problem in society.

Don't forget add police in there somewhere.

Bill Kirby wrote: Don't forget add police in there somewhere.

Yeah, jeez. My sympathies to any of your cities with these repeated messes. Another thing that is changing, but at a glacial pace. I overlap riots, and guard guys being expected to shoot the citizenry. Part of why they are NOT called out as often, as early, or with a police mission.

OP, don't construe my post as supporting yours, especially the first one. You stirred up a discussion, which is good, but you have done a heck of a lot of back pedaling since.

I overlapped a lot of change, and I'm not exactly elderly. It takes front runners, like the suffragettes, to get things even rolling. Then people willing to join the first "radical" crowd, like white college guys marching with MLK. Or, seventh graders staging a sit in protesting an asinine dress code (next year, it was anything goes, including miniskirts that you couldn't sit down in).But it also takes a whole heck of a lot of time and ibdividuals, just thinking about it, before the big sea changes become the norm.

Title nine was going to be the death of high school/college sports programs at the time. How many feel threatened by any part of that now? It takes a loonnngg, loonnngg time.

And just regular folks like us. H.

I have two daughters, 10 and 12, both gorgeous, like their Mom. My twelve year old is 5'8" and about 115 pounds and very athletic, needless to say she gets a fair bit of attention from the younger guys at the local gym. So far, I haven't noticed anything out of line. It seems like a fairly safe place for my kids, maybe having their old man hovering around discourages that though.

I'm trying to teach them to be strong women, not to put up with crap, but at the same time I don't want to jade them to every guy out there who is truly trying to be a genuine nice guy. We're not all assholes, but it's a learning curve, I think a gym is a fairly safe place for them to call out a guy who is too aggressive, and the local crag should be too. I just hope they're smart about when and where they choose their battles.

I hope this changes, it wont completely in my lifetime I don't think, maybe theirs? Here's to positive change.

This all being said, being a Noob to the climbing scene, I love watching people of all shapes and sizes climb, hope no one feels I'm ogling, I think I just learn so much watching others, it inspires me to see anyone just fly to the top of something I don't have a hope of doing.

Climblikeagirl hasn't posted in here for a while, but I think a big reason guys would go to guys for beta opinions even when there's a capable-looking woman next to him has to do with not wanting to overstep their boundaries.

Guys, if a guy walks up to you and your girlfriend and only talks to the girl and pretends you, the male, don't exist, that would probably piss you off. Guys are usually wired to protect what's theirs (lack of a better word, I'm not trying to label women as property). Inversely, you're asking a guy/girl combo beta, you ask the guy because you don't want to start a fight with this guy that you don't know. You don't know the relationship of the guy and girl, they could be husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend, brother/sister, cousins, friends, whatever. The fact that you don't know what the relationship is contributes to asking the male instead of the female, for fear of starting a confrontation from the guy. The person asking may just want to try to include the woman in the conversation as well.

I agree with some things from both sides. I think that there is a bit of lack of personal responsibility when it comes to certain things, but at the same time everyone should look at themselves and say, "I can be better to other people." Everyone's guilty of it, me included. Going around and labeling everyone a misogynist, racist, homophobe, xenophobe, whatever, doesn't really help anything. Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes those actions are words. Speak up, but do so in a way that helps the situation and diffuses it.

PS: Really disappointed that after 12+ pages Aleks hasn't chimed in about reducing naughty crotch bulge and flashing 5.13s in lycra.

Johnny Kipp wrote:I have two daughters, 10 and 12, both gorgeous, like their Mom. My twelve year old is 5'8" and about 115 pounds and very athletic, needless to say she gets a fair bit of attention from the younger guys at the local gym. So far, I haven't noticed anything out of line. It seems like a fairly safe place for my kids, maybe having their old man hovering around discourages that though. I'm trying to teach them to be strong women, not to put up with crap, but at the same time I don't want to jade them to every guy out there who is truly trying to be a genuine nice guy. We're not all assholes, but it's a learning curve, I think a gym is a fairly safe place for them to call out a guy who is too aggressive, and the local crag should be too. I just hope they're smart about when and where they choose their battles. I hope this changes, it wont completely in my lifetime I don't think, maybe theirs? Here's to positive change. This all being said, being a Noob to the climbing scene, I love watching people of all shapes and sizes climb, hope no one feels I'm ogling, I think I just learn so much watching others, it inspires me to see anyone just fly to the top of something I don't have a hope of doing.

Sadly, kids aren't allowed to be kids anymore nearly as much as when I was young.

Also sad, in my lifetime, was the emergence of anorexia, which has not gone away, but now includes boys as well.

Climbing is a great venue for your girls to have/maintain a healthy body image, and a lifelong activity with many off shoots. True for males, too, although I have heard far too many men talk about their weight related to climbing. Not at all from ladies, not when climbing. Interesting, eh? Maybe we ladies can help you guys on that one! Realistic, versus bashing. It's okay to set goals, but it's also okay to love what you currently live in, and go for it the best you can with whatever ya got today. Your take on your body is the only one that matters!

Old lady H wrote:OP, don't construe my post as supporting yours, especially the first one. You stirred up a discussion, which is good, but you have done a heck of a lot of back pedaling since.

Funny you think I have been back pedaling. My tone may have become less argumentative since the day--sure--but I stand by what I wrote and would say it all over again. Maybe in a less argumentative tone next time, but my points and perspective would remain equally the same. I fully expected backlash from members of the community when I wrote the letter. It's obviously never popular to call people out over such a sensitive topic and I would be a fool if I thought everyone in the climbing community shared my same perspective.

Out of curiosity, which points did you disagree with?

• Climbing community has made vast improvements in regards to gender equality and it speaks volume for the people in it (basically along the lines of what you said, except when I said it I was apparently misogynistic)
• I acknowledged that humans are inherently sexist
• Survey that the entire article is based on is bias, inconclusive, and frankly irrelevant to the discussion as we are talking about the entire community, not about Hangar 18 in San Diego)
• Flash Foxy unfairly labeled multiple normal human behaviors as gender discrimination or sexual harassment
• I suggested the possibility that many of the scenarios cited in the article that were perceived as sexist could be attributed to poor assumptions that were made by the author or women in general
• I stated extremely obvious facts about the world we live in (e.g. revealing clothing attracts attention, sky is blue, etc.)
• I suggested the issue of sexual harassment, by its actual definition, is not as widespread in the climbing community as the author attempted to convey in her article.
• I suggested that the climbing community take a realistic approach to dealing with sexism or condescending behavior as oppose to being a victim.

Anyway, since writing the letter I’ve simply elaborated or rephrased previous points that were misconstrued. Additionally I decided to provide specific “adequate ways” to deal with condescending, sexist remarks since I failed to specify in my letter and would rather be part of the solution than be part of the problem.

There is obviously issues with sexism in the climbing community. I clearly acknowledged that in the letter (I'm sure many readers skimmed past that part). I simply said that I did not feel it was as frequent as the article suggested based off mine and my partner's experiences. To which many of you have said, “well if Daniel Evans doesn’t FEEL it happens, then it must not happen.” Not at all. Key word here was “frequency”, and like many other things I wrote was twisted around by the reader to label me as something I’m not. I wrote the letter because I love climbing as well as the community and frankly wanted to preserve any last bit of common sense we had before the PC police left their mark. I've received enough support both on MP and from friends to know I'm not the only one who felt this way and I'm not going to apologize for sharing my perspective whether it be popular or not.