2 Ropes Required to Single-Pitch?

I am JUST starting outdoors so please bear with what I believe is probably a criminally stupid question...

Assuming that your total climb is more than 30 meters, do you ALWAYS need a second rope (to tie to your climbing rope) to rapp from when sport climbing? I am trying to visualize how that would go...climb to the top on your lead rope, safety yourself in to the anchor at the top, top-belay your partner up, then both rapp down...but you would need a second rope to do so, right?

Is there any situation in which you could just use ONE rope to sport-climb?

Obviously if the total ascent is less than 30M you can just double your main rope back and lower or rapp off it. I think.

On a single pitch sport route why would you need to top belay your partner up?

If the climb is longer than 30m (or maybe 35m, for 70m ropes) it may be broken into 30m pitches, or if you suppose it is a rope-stretcher 60m, it may have two rappel anchors, one at the top and one halfway down. Or, there may be a walk-off finish, which is exactly what it sounds like.

Sometimes you do need 2 ropes to rappel what you just climbed, but it's not common.

Jon Powell wrote:On a single pitch sport route why would you need to top belay your partner up?

He's asking about pitches longer than 30m. In which case unless you have two ropes, you can't lower & TR your partner.

Well, consider this: What would people do when rappelling down a long multi-pitch route? There would be intermediate rappel stations (anchors).

First person rappels to rappel station anchor. She ties to anchor and calls off rappel. Second person rappels to anchor and ties in. Both pull down the rope and thread it through the rappel anchor. Rappel down to next anchor. Rinse and repeat.

You are correct that if you are using just one rope to lower or rap you can only go a maximum of half that rope length.* If the climb is longer than half your rope length, you will need either a longer rope, additional rope, or intermediate anchor. You may also be able to walk off.

Carefully check the length of your rope and the length of the climb you are doing. When lowering your partner, stay tied in to your end. When rapping, confirm your ends are on the ground, knot the ends, rap slowly while watching carefully, or all of the above.

*Assuming you want your rope back. In an emergency situation, if you are less than one full rope length to the ground, leaving your rope behind is usually preferable to spending the night.

Yep, pretty much, you'll need two ropes if there aren't rap anchors at a halfway point -- if there are, you can do two raps. Also, always tie a knot in the ends of your ropes when lowering / rappelling to keep yourself from going right off the end of your rope. It's a really good habit to pick up.

Dylan B. wrote: This. Almost all sport pitches are 30 meters or less, and require only one 60 meter rope. Some modern sport climbs are 35 meters, and are climbed with a single 70 meter rope. A very small number of contemporary climbs were put in with an 80 meter rope, putting the anchors at 40 meters. These latter two classes are fairly rare, fairly modern, usually hard climbs, and always indicated in any guide you read. Then there's sport multi-pitch, which you need to treat just like trad, and expect to carry two ropes.

If there were a single-pitch sport climb that was (let's say) 40 meters high, and there were no intermediate double-bolts to set up an intermediate rapp station, what is the general consensus on rapping off of a single bolt?

Are you asking because of your question on Dirty Dishes?

"I am confused...this is listed as a single pitch but the beta describes 12 bolts...then says sixth bolt is doubled to rapp down? How many bolts, how many pitches, etc. I am sure I am missing something here but please assist."

The answer was in the description: "2 bolt anchor on top.... a bolted anchor over 170 feet high. The sixth bolt is doubled for the rappel back down."

beau Griffith wrote: If there were a single-pitch sport climb that was (let's say) 40 meters high, and there were no intermediate double-bolts to set up an intermediate rapp station, what is the general consensus on rapping off of a single bolt?

You can do it but the shenanigans involved are dangerous and not worth the effort: you'd have to go direct in a single bolt, pull the rope, re-thread it (and leave a bail biner or quicklink), then finish the rappel.
I'd be happy to claim the bail biner later but quicklinks on bolts make for harder clips...

beau Griffith wrote: If there were a single-pitch sport climb that was (let's say) 40 meters high, and there were no intermediate double-bolts to set up an intermediate rapp station, what is the general consensus on rapping off of a single bolt?

General consensus is that putting all of your faith in one bolt (of questionable age, installation, and in questionable rock type) is not good. ie, putting all your eggs in one basket. Not that it has never been done in an emergency or when bailing from a route... Trail a second rope tied on the back loop of your harness (don't tie it off to your gear loops).

PS. Yer definitely gonna die! (sorry, couldn't resist)

beau Griffith wrote: If there were a single-pitch sport climb that was (let's say) 40 meters high, and there were no intermediate double-bolts to set up an intermediate rapp station, what is the general consensus on rapping off of a single bolt?

What you are describing is something I've never seen. Like the person above said, there are a very small number of routes put up that require an 80 meter rope. It's just not something you need to worry about. Pay attention to descriptions in guide books and MP about rope length needed to descend or walk off option, which is pretty common.

Check a guidebook.

Almost all sport climbs are put up with the intent that they can be led, lowered/rapped off and cleaned with one rope. This is just more or less how the game is played. So if there are occasions when the climb doesn't conform to that standard, they make mention of it in route descriptions. Sometimes for example, it's just a rope-stretcher and you need to rap to a block and down climb a few feet. Something like that.

Many thanks all. I guess I was thrown off as I was looking at some single pitch sport routes in my area (Southern Sierra) and I saw a few that were >100 feet (170, 200, etc.) and they didn't have walk-off instructions. Must be a strange anomaly but glad to know it is not the norm.

wivanoff wrote:Are you asking because of your question on Dirty Dishes? "I am confused...this is listed as a single pitch but the beta describes 12 bolts...then says sixth bolt is doubled to rapp down? How many bolts, how many pitches, etc. I am sure I am missing something here but please assist." The answer was in the description: "2 bolt anchor on top.... a bolted anchor over 170 feet high. The sixth bolt is doubled for the rappel back down."

Oh. Yes. It makes so much sense now that you explain it to me. Thank you!

Also thank you Jake for the exceptional clarification. Huge disclaimer is that I do not plan on gearing up and attacking sport climbs on my own without significantly more in-person mentor ship. Just trying to clarify concepts and ensure I don't need to add $100-150 to my gear budget to rap a single pitch! I see now that lowering is a safer, easier and more sensible choice.

Question regarding lowering at the completion of the final ascent on a given route: I will need to clean my draws/anchor from the top bolts. At this juncture should I rap down off the chains or is it acceptable to be lowered through the chains (as I understand rapping is better for preserving the fixed gear)?

Jake Jones wrote: You would have received a much more concise and understandable pool of responses had you mentioned the route in question.

Good point, thank you.

beau Griffith wrote:Many thanks all. I guess I was thrown off as I was looking at some single pitch sport routes in my area (Southern Sierra) and I saw a few that were >100 feet (170, 200, etc.) and they didn't have walk-off instructions. Must be a strange anomaly but glad to know it is not the norm.

OK, what climbs in the Southern Sierra are sport climbs and are longer than 30m?

Tons of climbs, in those parts, that have only bolts for pro but are NOT sportclimbs.

I don't really like how nonchalantly everyone is saying "oh, that's something you'll never have to worry about". I can think of a climb off the top of my head that's in a predominantly single pitch sport climbing park (red rock canyon open space in colorado springs) that requires two ropes to rap/lower from (at least with 60 meter ropes, possibly with 70s), and I know I've climbed plenty of single pitch sport routes that require 70 meter ropes to lower / rap with. Not to mention not all climbing ropes are EXACTLY 60 or 70m long, sometimes they'll run shorter or longer than that, so just because one party's 60m is just barely long enough, it doesn't necessarily mean yours is.

I'm not meaning to harp on this, but I don't want anyone to take this too lightly -- one of the most common causes if not THE most common cause of climbing injuries / death is from rappelling off the end of your rope. I watched a guy get carried out of Clear Creek Canyon on a stretcher with two broken legs just a couple weeks ago because his rope was thirty feet from the ground when he was rapping and he neglected to tie knots in the ends of his ropes.

There shouldn't ever be any doubt when climbing -- if you're not sure if you have enough rope for a certain climb, do your research on the climb before getting on it, or be prepared to deal with the possibility that your rope isn't long enough.

Dylan B. wrote: This. Almost all sport pitches are 30 meters or less, and require only one 60 meter rope.

Not exactly a good statement to make to a new climber. There are tons of sport routes that require a 70 to rap or lower. Several people have been dropped believing this to be true.

No. I read the first sentence. I tried not to cry. I cried.

This thread is kind of humorous but also a bit sad.

A single pitch of climbing can be whatever length it may be, it does not magically end at 25m or 30m. It could be 50 feet or 50 meters. It does not matter if it is sport or trad climbing pitch length varies. It is not something anomalous. Guide books usually do a descent job of listing the length of each pitch or for the crag.

How do you know if you will need two ropes to safely get off the pitch. If the pitch length is twice the length of your rope you "probably" need two ropes. Pretty basic math with twos:

pitch length x 2 > rope length == 2 ropes. QED

Note the use of the word "probably" sometimes there maybe enough rope stretch, sometimes the route wanders, there may be alternative landing, etc. so to get back to the ground. This of course assumes you can not walk off and are descending the route you climbed.

Another two comes into the equation the 1/2 or middle mark in the rope. That is how you know the above to be true or false. Well you hope the belayer knows and is paying attention. If you have only one rope and false you are golden, if true you could be screwed or leaving gear behind (a biner). Worst case, ya tied yer rope off, rap, and come back with a second rope. (Of course then there will be thread about a left rope being taken thread).

For OP, when climbing a route that requires two ropes, one climbs to the top and anchors in. Next you bring the second up to the belay station. Now for the rappel. Severals options, the second may have trailed a second rope (typical) or they may have backpacked the rope. The leader may also bring up a rope but I am not going to detail that setup.

As for the second rope, typically it will be another lead rope. However, it may be a tag line being either a static line for rappelling only and/or it may be slightly smaller in diameter. With either one would do a double rope rappel. There are also cases where the tag line is very small in diameter < 6 mm. I am not going to detail that setup.

Finally, just because a route is less than half the length your rope one may still want to do a top belay. It just depends on the line.

Recently I did come across a guidebook that said "2 ropes needed to lower" on some of the routes. Single pitch, just gloriously long.

Rap, okay, I get that, leader just trails a line, or the second rope, or hauls the second rope, and proceeds from there. But lower? With a lead climber at the anchor, belayer on the ground, a route to be cleaned, and more than half the rope out? How does that work? Sorry, my brain just isn't making a lower happen with that scenario and a second rope.

Thanks! Helen