Randoms from a New Climber

Kevin Heckeler wrote: Most metro areas (even non-metropolitan areas like Albany) have one or more climbing gyms now. It's definitely fair. Actually, my post was perhaps too fair, as many of those fresh from the gym climbers are making serious mistakes leading outdoors as well. It's become such a problem a few gyms and organizations are actually having 'gym to crag' days as I described, trying to initiate gym climbers to climbing outdoors. I didn't make this shit up, it's been a problem for a few years now. It's finally (slowly) being addressed.

I know of a bunch of gyms with different owners that all have stopped guiding. It's just too dangerous, the stories I heard of why they stopped makes it completely understandable.

Tylerpratt wrote: I know of a bunch of gyms with different owners that all have stopped guiding. It's just too dangerous, the stories I heard of why they stopped makes it completely understandable.

I think you misunderstood, I wasn't suggesting they needed to head out with clients. Some gyms will do it, or will work with an existing guiding outfit [which I believe is how the recent Gunks 'gym to crag' day was conducted].

Arm the new climber with information, then if they head out they can find or pay someone to teach them. The underlying issue seems to be new climbers are not being educated in very basic ethics. Belaying and hauling yourself up the wall is only a small (albeit important) portion of "climbing".

Again, this isn't a new phenomena limited to the scope of these posts in this thread.

Kevin Heckeler wrote: I think you misunderstood, I wasn't suggesting they needed to head out with clients. Some gyms will do it, or will work with an existing guiding outfit [which I believe is how the recent Gunks 'gym to crag' day was conducted]. Arm the new climber with information, then if they head out they can find or pay someone to teach them. The underlying issue seems to be new climbers are not being educated in very basic ethics. Belaying and hauling yourself up the wall is only a small (albeit important) portion of "climbing". Again, this isn't a new phenomena limited to the scope of these posts in this thread.

Most modern gyms aren't teaching climbing, they're teaching gym climbing. They're not training new rock climbers; they're creating new customers.

n00b wrote: Most modern gyms aren't teaching climbing, they're teaching gym climbing. They're not training new rock climbers; they're creating new customers.

If you had posted this 6 months ago I would have argued with you. But based on some stuff I've seen where you have gym workers who don't lead climb "teaching" people how to lead climb and giving lead belay tests I have to agree with you.

Back to the original tread. I personally don't hate top roping. If I'm going way above my project grade for lead or if a move looks dicey and there is a change of falling and decking or hurting my belayer I'll check it out on TR.

But I've never been on a TR route that gave me the same sense of satisfaction as I feel when I keep my shit together though a challenging and/or scary sequence on lead.

n00b wrote: Most modern gyms aren't teaching climbing, they're teaching gym climbing. They're not training new rock climbers; they're creating new customers.

Yup, it would seem that some gyms are definitely geared toward that direction. And now with all the indoor competitions and eventual Olympics participation I don't see that trend changing.

Ted Pinson wrote:Unless you're following another climber, I doubt someone will leave a toprope set up in the middle of Afghanistan. Lead climbing (specifically, traditional) is most likely what you would end up doing based on my (admittedly limited) knowledge of tactical mountaineering.

Unless someone supplies a visitor or soldier in Afghanistan with a Trad protection rack and a dynamic rope, the most likely style of climbing will be
soloing.
Perhaps "free", perhaps with some sort of Aid, but soloing.

I say: If somebody says your climbing is inferior because you're Top-Roping instead of Leading, ask them why they're not Soloing.

Top-roping is good practice for soloing. Especially if (like me) you spend a high percentage of outdoor TR time practicing down-climbing.

Myself I'd prefer to solo (free or Aid) or top-rope.

Leading (or following) is third-choice inferior for me because I get a lower percentage of time actually climbing. And because usually I don't get to climb as difficult or interesting moves as top-roping.

My main reasons for Leading (whether trad or sport) and to (1) set up TR on harder climbs nearby; (2) scope out a route so I can come back and solo it some other time.

Ken

Ricardo, where you from, bro?

Don't be surprised there's a lot of haters and narcissists on this site. They only feel better when they are putting other people down so they can (at least they think they can) make themselves look good.

Climbers are no different than a lot of other people, they are clannish and parochial in many ways.

As a newbie don't let that stuff bother you.

Top-roping is what it is, an acceptable way of minimizing the risk of harm to the climber as they learn how to climb, or as they push themselves on harder grades. Once you get comfortable with climbing and want to get the full on rush of climbing, you will want to lead climb and test your limits.

Don't do so until you are ready, and certainly don't let others make you feel you are wimpy for not taking on more risk than you are ready for.

Be safe young man, Climb for yourself, not all the sprayers on this site.

And to be clear, there are a lot o f problems with basic courtesy at climbing venues with lots of people (as noted by some above). Once you've become more comfortable with climbing, you can progress to more remote areas with fewer people.