Response to Flash Foxy & Outside Magazine Article

i didn't even know that climbers read outside magazine. guess i learned something today...

I tend more toward the macro-aggressions. Subtlety isn't my strong suit.

Maybe I've just been luckier than most, or maybe I'm just thick skinned, but my personal experience with climbers, both in the gym and outside has been nothing but positive. Though I am a single female climber whole climbs with both male and female partners, I've never felt singled out, belittled, or any other "micro-aggression" towards me simply because of my gender. If a guy did try to get all he-man on me, I just let it roll off my back or respond sarcastically. It's seriously blows my mind that some women feel so strongly discriminated against that they need to write an article and conduct a survey about how men are ruining their experience. Maybe this is more of a thing where there is a bigger climbing presence like in Colorado, but climbing with guys and making friends with random people is one of the reasons I love climbing so much! Just my two cents.

What is it about this particular article that has brought out such an enormous amount of ire and defensiveness? It's incredible.

Anyway, I'll bite.

Daniel Evans wrote: However, I feel as though the climbing community in particular has made substantial progress in the right direction regarding gender equality over the years

So you can make a claim based on your 'feeling' and lived experience, but you are holding the author of the article to a higher standard of proof? Especially given that the author is upfront about the stats and doesn't try to pass them off as scientifically conclusive?

Daniel Evans wrote:#2: Behaviors you listed as “microaggressions”, sexual harassment, or gender discrimination, are none of the above. ... I’m not quite sure you really understand the term correctly. Key word being “discrimination” here.... I must have missed the memo when harmless staring and flirtation became classified as gender discrimination or constituted sexual harassment.... Obviously if the flirtation turns into actual sexual harassment, then we are discussing something entirely different and it should be handled accordingly.

The level of condescension in your tone is getting a bit extreme so I cut it out. Can you tell us where you've decided to draw the line between flirtation and "actual" sexual harassment? Are you also defining what counts as discrimination?

Daniel Evans wrote: Logically the next step within societal norms would be for the man to try and talk to the female climber in hopes of making a connection. Seeing as you are in a climbing gym, it should not come as a total surprise when said male climber attempts to talk about a route with you or give you beta. Poor taste? Annoying? Unwanted? Maybe, but still irrelevant to the topic of gender discrimination.

Or maybe societal norms should tell the guy that he shouldn't approach every woman he finds attractive in a gym? Maybe he should be aware enough to know that the gym might be a place where women come to climb and not to have to turn down the advances of men around them.

Allow me illustrate with a shitty story: You are German. You climb at a gym where half of the climbers make bratwurst in their free time. Might you get more than annoyed that these people are repeatedly approaching you every day to ask if you want their sausage? Just because you're German? Some of them even insist that you must try their sausage! Some are super polite and sure, you happen to love bratwurst, but maybe all of the sausage being offered has gotten on your nerves. Maybe you're vegetarian! Or maybe you just don't want sausage at that particular time and would rather focus on climbing. Who knows!

Daniel Evans wrote:However from the beginning, your article basically demonizes male climbers and does nothing to make us inclined to stand behind your movement in any way.

Your complete lack of understanding, extreme condescension, and tone deaf response indicates that nothing will get you to stand behind her movement.

Daniel Evans wrote: If you don’t like the attention, then wear something different.

Yea that's what I'm talking about

Daniel Evans wrote:I am not saying that it is okay for men to be staring down a woman’s sports bra “because it’s how were wired”

Actually... that's exactly what you're saying. That women should have to wear something different because men have no choice but to stare, so it's their fault for expecting anything different.

Daniel Evans wrote: #4: Actual incidents of gender discrimination and abuse are far and few between across the climbing community as a whole, yet your article conveys a different message. In the five years I’ve been climbing both in the gym and outdoors, I have yet to witness an actual incident of real physical or verbal abuse that was gender driven. Now this isn’t to say that it does not occur nor am I dismissing the issue, but I feel as though had this actually been a rampant issue within our community like your article would like to have us believe, I would have witnessed something remotely close to what you have described somewhere along the way at least once.

Why do you assume that you would see or notice these occurrences when they are directed at a group that you don't belong to? Or maybe things that seem completely innocuous to you are actually being interpreted differently by someone who has a different perspective because of their gender. I think that is one thing (among others) that you've missed entirely in your response: you are telling women that they should interpret things the same way that you do and anything else is childish/irrational/dramatic/etc.

Daniel Evans wrote: I have no doubt in my mind that somewhere out there in the midst of our climbing community lies the resident douchebags ... If my words of encouragement or “bad beta” come across as condescending due to our gender differences, that is simply based off your poor assumption, not my intentions as a mentor or friend.

I'm sure the big bad douchebags are out there but that's not the point of the article. It's trying to point out the small negative interactions (what was that word you felt the need to define?) that can go unnoticed by people who have the best intentions at heart. That's the thing with sexism and racism - it's not actually the KKK and wife-beaters that are perpetuating a majority culture. It's people like you and I who think that they are in the clear because they would never whistle at a woman on the street. Like you said, sexism exists in every day life, and it exists in all of us thanks to built-in perceptions and value judgments that we often don't consciously notice.

Oh, and there you go again blaming the author for her negative interpretations instead of considering how what you said might actually have a different effect than you intended.

Daniel Evans wrote: In this case, a simple conversation between two mature adults would quickly resolve any misunderstanding that may have presented itself.

Oh, of course! We could all just talk it out one by one! Someone should call people of color and let them know too.

Daniel Evans wrote: Summary In closing, I could sit here and give a step-by-step breakdown of what guys should or should not do, but I’m not going to insult anyone’s intelligence

Really? Because so far you've only told us what women should and should not do.

Daniel Evans wrote: No one article or public announcement is ever going to change that kind of thinking from such a weak-minded individual. Let the key takeaway here though be that many of the issues you described in your article are derived from normal human behavior that will never go away no matter how many nasty grams you write for the male population – so learning adequate ways to handle them appropriately is the obvious answer here, not “safe spaces” because they don’t exist.

So women should keep quiet about "actual douchebags" because they can't change their minds anyway... And they should also keep quiet about everything else because it's not discrimination...

Daniel Evans wrote:Obviously I am 110% supportive of anything that empowers our female climbers and creates a healthier environment for all, but we just need to approach it in a sensible manner. I hope that this letter has shed some new light on various issues from one male climber’s perspective

I don't think you actually are as supportive as you think you are. Instead of taking the opportunity to engage with the content of the article in an open way, you've taken to using a variety of irrational arguments to disqualify the apparently real experiences of women in the climbing gym. One half-cocked survey is still more proof than you've presented to the contrary.

What time does the Men's Rights Association meeting start?

Over 1000 women told Daniel Evans (via this survey) that his amorous attentions are unwanted and feel harassing. He refuses to listen or try to understand, which is probably why it feels like harassment when he approaches women in the gym. 20+ pages of posts on MP aren't going to get him to reconsider.

i just want to pause and focus on this sentence that mr evans shat out near the start of that garbage:

"Inherently, sexism exists everywhere throughout our daily lives because unfortunately that is just the way our planet is."

seems kind of trivial at first, but if you really think about this sentence and its implications, it might be the most upsetting part of the whole post!

Dan Austin wrote:i just want to pause and focus on this sentence that mr evans shat out near the start of that garbage: "Inherently, sexism exists everywhere throughout our daily lives because unfortunately that is just the way our planet is." seems kind of trivial at first, but if you really think about this sentence and its implications, it might be the most upsetting part of the whole post!

It's an acknowledgement of the fact that we as humans are not inherently perfect. I then went on to add that we as a community have acknowledged this fact and are doing everything within our power to improve where we possibly can. If this upsets you, I don't know what else to tell you.

BigRed11 wrote:What is it about this particular article that has brought out such an enormous amount of ire and defensiveness? It's incredible. Anyway, I'll bite. So you can make a claim based on your 'feeling' and lived experience, but you are holding the author of the article to a higher standard of proof? Especially given that the author is upfront about the stats and doesn't try to pass them off as scientifically conclusive? The level of condescension in your tone is getting a bit extreme so I cut it out. Can you tell us where you've decided to draw the line between flirtation and "actual" sexual harassment? Are you also defining what counts as discrimination? Or maybe societal norms should tell the guy that he shouldn't approach every woman he finds attractive in a gym? Maybe he should be aware enough to know that the gym might be a place where women come to climb and not to have to turn down the advances of men around them. Allow me illustrate with a shitty story: You are German. You climb at a gym where half of the climbers make bratwurst in their free time. Might you get more than annoyed that these people are repeatedly approaching you every day to ask if you want their sausage? Just because you're German? Some of them even insist that you must try their sausage! Some are super polite and sure, you happen to love bratwurst, but maybe all of the sausage being offered has gotten on your nerves. Maybe you're vegetarian! Or maybe you just don't want sausage at that particular time and would rather focus on climbing. Who knows! Your complete lack of understanding, extreme condescension, and tone deaf response indicates that nothing will get you to stand behind her movement. Yea that's what I'm talking about Actually... that's exactly what you're saying. That women should have to wear something different because men have no choice but to stare, so it's their fault for expecting anything different. Why do you assume that you would see or notice these occurrences when they are directed at a group that you don't belong to? Or maybe things that seem completely innocuous to you are actually being interpreted differently by someone who has a different perspective because of their gender. I think that is one thing (among others) that you've missed entirely in your response: you are telling women that they should interpret things the same way that you do and anything else is childish/irrational/dramatic/etc. I'm sure the big bad douchebags are out there but that's not the point of the article. It's trying to point out the small negative interactions (what was that word you felt the need to define?) that can go unnoticed by people who have the best intentions at heart. That's the thing with sexism and racism - it's not actually the KKK and wife-beaters that are perpetuating a majority culture. It's people like you and I who think that they are in the clear because they would never whistle at a woman on the street. Like you said, sexism exists in every day life, and it exists in all of us thanks to built-in perceptions and value judgments that we often don't consciously notice. Oh, and there you go again blaming the author for her negative interpretations instead of considering how what you said might actually have a different effect than you intended. Oh, of course! We could all just talk it out one by one! Someone should call people of color and let them know too. Really? Because so far you've only told us what women should and should not do. So women should keep quiet about "actual douchebags" because they can't change their minds anyway... And they should also keep quiet about everything else because it's not discrimination... I don't think you actually are as supportive as you think you are. Instead of taking the opportunity to engage with the content of the article in an open way, you've taken to using a variety of irrational arguments to disqualify the apparently real experiences of women in the climbing gym. One half-cocked survey is still more proof than you've presented to the contrary.

Yes the author of the article is held to a higher standard as she decided to take the initiative to publish an article that speaks for the entire climbing community to a magazine. I wrote this letter simply as a reader and someone who did not agree with her survey methods or portrayal of the overall situation. Therefore there is no obligation on my end to provide you with a different survey to prove my point or disprove hers.

I see that you took a lot of what I said to extremes. You realize it's extremely difficult to address every single situation in a timely fashion?Hence why I have focused on very generalized scenarios in hopes that the reader may grasp the key points in as little as a few pages.

I personally do not approach random women in public period as that is not my style of engaging with women. I generally do better when introduced by a friend and what not. I was simply trying to highlight the point that just because there are some women out there who perceive flirtation as sexual harassment does not necessarily mean that it is sexual harassment. Can you imagine if we started charging and convicting people of crimes based off how the other person feels (even though this actually does happen unfortunately)?

My delivery may have come across as condescending, if it does I apologize as it was not my intention. That been said I did purposely add a hint of frustration which I believe is well deserved for reasons I've already listed.

n00b wrote:Over 1000 women told Daniel Evans (via this survey) that his amorous attentions are unwanted and feel harassing. He refuses to listen or try to understand, which is probably why it feels like harassment when he approaches women in the gym. 20+ pages of posts on MP aren't going to get him to reconsider.

If the NRA publishes their results from a volunteer-based survey regarding gun control, is this survey credible to you?

Dan, their study isn't an attack on men. The climbing community is one we own together, and if most women feel they are being microaggressed against on a consistent basis, then all people in the climbing community should not only respect those experiences but actively pledge to breakdown the culture that leads to these negative experiences. No one said you aren't a great guy, so I don't know why you need to be so defensive...

1,000 women responded to that study and a majority of them stated they have been subject to microaggressions or worse...why are you suggesting their experiences are invalid? We are members of the climbing community and it isn't enough to simply hold our own self to being "good", we must hold each other accountable. Flash Foxy is giving all of us the opportunity to see that even if we, as the climbing community, are doing better than many other communities in the world -- we are not where we want to be. There's no need to be defensive or to deride their study, their study is an opportunity for all of us to hold each other to a higher level. i love this community, but that doesn't mean we've made it to any kind of finish line.

also, in regards to redefining words, i recommend reading some Paulo Freire, redefining words is a very important element of cultural change and all of us need to get on board with changing words to better reflect the experiences of others in our community.

(if you are looking for me, I'll be giving Antonio an egregious butt spot at the Happies)

It's been a long time since anything written in Outside could be elevated beyond clickbait and over-hyped gear shilling.

This, however, is a pretty considerate article on triggering and microaggression (hopefully first and last time I ever write those words), if you're interested in something more substantial.

theatlantic.com/magazine/ar…

Rick Blair wrote: Because some psychiatrist coined the term in 1970? And this to you is proof?

Yes, because it's been used in psychology and sociology papers for the last 45 years since it was coined. Just because it's new to a lot of people and has seen increasing usage only in the last 6 years or so doesn't make it any less valid.

I think the wrong thing to do with that article is to make a bunch of claims that you can pull out of your ass.

What I do feel is important, is a thematic element I find with many on this planet:

If you are expecting to control other's thoughts, particularly what others are thinking about you, you are failing terribly. Insecurities and the gym do NOT go together - check your ego at the door, ego means more than being annoying it means easily annoyed as well.

Go to the gym to train. Hold that to a high standard. Have open communication with others at the gym including the staff so that it is a safe space. Maybe the person offending you is just really, really dumb and don't know what they are doing is affecting your experience. You've got to find a way to live on this planet with those folks, so do it nicely.

Patrick Shyvers wrote: Arguing the other side of the fence, it can be unsettling to be told that unwanted flirting or even just unwanted attention is tantamount to harassment. The human pairing ritual deeply embraces the swing-and-miss, and no matter how considerate you are, you're bound to try to flirt with someone who just isn't interested at some point.

The "unwanted" part is a pretty crucial piece here. No one is saying there is anything wrong with flirting or attention. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with a phone call, either. But unwanted phone calls, when it has been made clear that they are unwanted, that continue without respect for your wishes, are harassment.

Learn to recognize when your flirting, attention, compliments, staring, whatever are unwanted. Respect that person's wishes and back off gracefully. That's really all anyone is asking here. I recognize that my personal experience is evidence of only that, but I have literally never heard any of my women friends complain about a guy who flirted once, was politely shut down, and left her alone after that. It's the continuing unwanted attention in direct disregard of your wishes that becomes harassment.

Em Cos wrote: The "unwanted" part is a pretty crucial piece here. No one is saying there is anything wrong with flirting or attention. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with a phone call, either. But unwanted phone calls, when it has been made clear that they are unwanted, that continue without respect for your wishes, are harassment. Learn to recognize when your flirting, attention, compliments, staring, whatever are unwanted. Respect that person's wishes and back off gracefully. That's really all anyone is asking here. I recognize that my personal experience is evidence of only that, but I have literally never heard any of my women friends complain about a guy who flirted once, was politely shut down, and left her alone after that. It's the continuing unwanted attention in direct disregard of your wishes that becomes harassment.

Of course. How often is someone going to flat out say to another person, "please leave me alone, I'm not interested"? So the part that is not 100% clear and something I tried to highlight in my letter is that not all guys are necessarily going to pick up on the cues that are being laid down. This still is not harassment per say, you simply have a really annoying person that doesn't quite "get it." I deal with people like this everyday, it's not specific to gyms.

Edit: Let me also just say again that I do not approach random women in the gym, it's just not my style of engaging with women or attempting to connect. I am merely discussing the most common scenario that seems to be a point of conflict here.

Daniel Evans wrote: Of course. How often is someone going to flat out say to another person, "please leave me alone, I'm not interested." So the part that is not 100% clear and something I tried to highlight in my letter is that not all guys are necessarily going to pick up on the cues that are being laid down. This still is not harassment per say, you just have a really annoying person that doesn't quite "get it." I deal with people like this everyday, it's not specific to gyms.

How often is someone going to say that? More often than you'd think. How often are they left alone after that? Less often than they should be.

Your logic here is something along the lines of:

A. Women complain of being harassed.
B. Daniel Evans has not personally experienced said harassment.
C. If Daniel Evans hasn't experienced it, it probably doesn't happen.
Therefore,
D. Women must not be complaining about ACTUAL harassment, but about much more minor things Daniel Evans has personally experienced or witnessed.

Now you are addressing the imaginary concerns in D, rather than the ACTUAL concerns expressed in A, and wondering why women's reaction seems to be out of proportion for situation D, when they are actually reacting to situation A.

(I have grave doubts that I actually expressed what I was trying to in that paragraph, so forgive me if I missed my mark. )

slim wrote:i didn't even know that climbers read outside magazine. guess i learned something today...

My thoughts exactly +1

Em Cos wrote: How often is someone going to say that? More often than you'd think. How often are they left alone after that? Less often than they should be. Your logic here is something along the lines of: A. Women complain of being harassed. B. Daniel Evans has not personally experienced said harassment. C. If Daniel Evans hasn't experienced it, it probably doesn't happen. Therefore, D. Women must not be complaining about ACTUAL harassment, but about much more minor things Daniel Evans has personally experienced or witnessed. Now you are addressing the imaginary concerns in D, rather than the ACTUAL concerns expressed in A, and wondering why women's reaction seems to be out of proportion for situation D, when they are actually reacting to situation A. (I have grave doubts that I actually expressed what I was trying to in that paragraph, so forgive me if I missed my mark. )

My thought process is based off Flash Foxy's article who says verbatim, "In other words, just because most women don’t experience blatant, aggressive sexual harassment at their climbing gyms, doesn’t mean it’s not there in the form of condescension or unwanted flirtation."

Jake Jones wrote: The only reason a guy should feel "cornered" by this, especially considering that the male interaction more often than not is the catalyst, is if they're actually guilty of it.

It's not a matter of feeling "cornered" by the article. It's a matter of calling out poor journalism.