stuck on crux - advice and opinion

I'd like some opinions on how we handled a situation and what I think I could have done instead or an alternative. It may be a common situation, but for me it wasn't. Here goes:

My leader finished the climb and was at the top belaying me. We could not communicate very well at all. IMO we should have shortened the pitch to create a closer belay if possible, had walking talkies, or a rope tug signal system in advance as we knew I might have trouble with the crux. We didn't do that. I couldn't pull the roof and pumped out. We were able to sort of communicate and it was clear I needed a lower. He lowered me to a good stance on a wide ledge. I took off a piece of gear I had cleaned and set up pro for myself and clipped in. Untied and he pulled up the rope. He rapped, cleaned his gear and came down to me. We built an anchor, tied in, and belayed over to the rap station where we rapped to the ground. That is what we did. It seems we handled it reasonably safely and no one had any problems, this time. Opinions?

While hanging in space it occurred to me that I could ascend the rope, or he could give me a pull/haul me with a Z pulley. But we couldn't communicate well. With me I had a hollow block to make a prussik and a Tibloc plus several double and shoulder length slings. I could have tied the prussik to a locker on my belay loop and used the tibloc and double sling to step up and ascend past the crux or to wherever I needed to. Or he could have hauled me. I do have experience ascending, I do not have experience hauling, or being hauled.

So that's it. I am sort of glad it happened to expose me to the situation and everyone was safe. Do you think we handled it correctly? What do you think of the alternatives I mentioned? What's the best way to handle it when the second can't get past a point on the climb and you can't just be lowered to the ground?

neils wrote:I'd like some opinions on how we handled a situation and what I think I could have done instead or an alternative. It may be a common situation, but for me it wasn't. Here goes: My leader finished the climb and was at the top belaying me. We could not communicate very well at all. IMO we should have shortened the pitch to create a closer belay if possible, had walking talkies, or a rope tug signal system in advance as we knew I might have trouble with the crux. We didn't do that. I couldn't pull the roof and pumped out. We were able to sort of communicate and it was clear I needed a lower. He lowered me to a good stance on a wide ledge. I took off a piece of gear I had cleaned and set up pro for myself and clipped in. Untied and he pulled up the rope. He rapped, cleaned his gear and came down to me. We built an anchor, tied in, and belayed over to the rap station where we rapped to the ground. That is what we did. It seems we handled it reasonably safely and no one had any problems, this time. Opinions? While hanging in space it occurred to me that I could ascend the rope, or he could give me a pull/haul me with a Z pulley. But we couldn't communicate well. With me I had a hollow block to make a prussik and a Tibloc plus several double and shoulder length slings. I could have tied the prussik to a locker on my belay loop and used the tibloc and double sling to step up and ascend past the crux or to wherever I needed to. Or he could have hauled me. I do have experience ascending, I do not have experience hauling, or being hauled. So that's it. I am sort of glad it happened to expose me to the situation and everyone was safe. Do you think we handled it correctly? What do you think of the alternatives I mentioned? What's the best way to handle it when the second can't get past a point on the climb and you can't just be lowered to the ground?

With you hanging in space, while possible, a haul is really hard for one person to implement. A "z" pulley (3 to 1) pretty certainly won't do it if it is your full body weight. Need a 5 or 6 to 1. This means he has the requisite skill set and gear to do it.

If you carry a prussik and belay device, or extra ascension gizmo or two, yes you can ascend the rope. You have to learn and practice this skill and learn how to back yourself up.

There are other techniques depending on how close you are to the belay above and whether the leader can lower extra rope to you to climb while you remain on belay on your main line.

Lowering down to the ledge was good idea, but a single piece does not an anchor make. It depends on the stance/ledge.

Sounds like you would benefit from a lot of skills training, and self knowledge of your ability to not put yourself into that kind of situation. Glad it worked out this time.

First, this is one of the pitfalls of longer pitches - communication problems. And it's very trendy to link pitches; people love to talk about it. I think the downsides to linking outweighs the positives. This may have been one pitch (don't know the climb), but like you said, maybe you could have broken it up.

That said, your options are limited. Have prusik cords and/or slings on your harness and know how to use them. Getting lowered was a good choice.

Sounds like you handled it fine.

Another alternative is to AID the roof. I assume there's a crack? Then put gear in it, use slings as etriers and just aid it.

Alternatively, if there's a really good crack, just put your wrists through the loops on a few cams and "crack tractor" the roof. You can also clip your harness into a cam, or both, so you can rest along the way.

Appreciate the post, and glad you made it out ok, which says that you definitely did something right. I've been in a similar situation a few different times, following a partner on a climb that is above my climbing level. Usually, this is not a problem, but like in your situation, can become an issue on overhanging routes or large roofs that leave the follower lost in space. In my experience, ascending the rope until you can re establish yourself on the wall has worked even when there is no way to communicate with the belayer above. If you are, however, able to get back into the wall, you could always plug a piece, attach cord or a sling, and step into it to get past the crux section. Ascending the rope is a simple, but invaluable skill to have, and doesn't require any extra gear. Again, thanks for your willingness to post about your experience!

FYI it was shockley's ceiling in the gunks - i had another post about beta climbing it

it did occur to me that a haul would be difficult - no experience with it but it just seemed like it would be. I do have experience ascending but that is also pretty strenuous or can be.

as far as the anchor while i was on the ledge, once he got down to me we had more gear and built a proper anchor. while i was waiting i did the best i could with what i had. fortunately i was on a very large and protected ledge. as he lowered me i ensured that was where i stopped so once he came down to me we could communicate and regroup at a reasonable spot.

I'd also agree that ability assessment and doing the climb to begin with might be the biggest mistake here.

The only problem I have with your solution is that your leader will not always be able to rap down to you and collect the gear on the way. And I have to question the decision to untie and sit there unroped. That pitch is short enough that the rappel could have been set up with you still at the end of the rope.

You had the required gear to ascend the rope the few feet it would have taken to clear the roof. That should have been your first choice. I'm guessing you just lacked the confidence/practice to tackle it. So there's your advice - practice the rope ascension starting from a free hang. This is especially important at the Gunks, as well as any time you're challenging yourself with a hard/new pitch..

Your leader hauling you up would be my last choice, even more so b/c you couldn't communicate effectively.

The decision to untie seems strange. Your partner could have just rapped with the rope through the gear and you still tied in. That way there is no chance of him not being able to reach you and you being stranded.

But I agree with John above that by far the best option is to aid the roof. It doesn't have to be pretty. You may not have much gear, but if you can get even a crappy piece that can take partial body weight you can use it as a hold (while still using feet and other hand on the rock) while your belayer takes tension, reset the piece, repeat. Way simpler than a convoluted mid-pitch bail. Often times someone only needs a few feet of assistance to reach better holds and pull through a crux.

Yes to what jsh said x1000000. And untying from the rope is just fawking stupid. Don't do that again

Hire a guide to show you how to get out of these situations. You guys got very very lucky. It's worth the $300 to know what to do when the stakes are as high as they are while climbing

Really though, you shouldn't have a problem with routes like shockleys. Go to a gym, start training after work and get stronger is the best fix.

Suggestions.

1. If the two of you knew the roof would be problematic, you should have discussed and decided on a protocol ahead of time.

2. If you knew how bad communication was going to be (which you may not have), then an intermediate belay in easy communication distance would have been a much better idea. On Shockley's, there are opportunities for a good semi-hanging belay above but close to the ceiling moves.

3. The textbook 3:1 haul technique is often ineffective in real situations and Shockley's would very likely be one of them. Hauling by the belayer should be viewed as an absolute last resort in extreme emergencies. There is no way a perfectly healthy follower should ever be 3:1 hauled by the leader.

4. The only hauling that should be considered involves having a belay close enough to lower a loop of slack to the follower. The method is described in the "3:1 Assisted Haul" section of climbing.com/skills/learn-t… and at ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…, which doesn't assume you are using a guide plate.

vimeo.com/17691243

Yeah, this is also a 3:1 haul, but is significantly easier because the second participates in the raising.

5. But basic climber competence for a second should involve the ability to get out of such situations without any assistance from the belayer.

(a) The best choice is for the second to aid the obstacle---if they have cleaned gear that can be used. The leader should if possible place a piece or two at the obstacle that the second could clip for aid.

(b) If aiding isn't possible, ascending the rope is the next choice. Discussion with the leader ahead of time should have established the fact such an ascent might occur.

If a rope ascent might happen, the leader has to anticipate the rope being continuously weighted for a while. The second should always have the (very minimal amount of) gear needed for such an event and should know how to carry out the process efficiently and safely.

If double ropes have been used, the second can ascend one of the ropes while being belayed with the other. Or, they can put one "clamping" device on each strand. This can be a big help with ceilings, since moving a "clamp" past the lip on a weighted rope can be nearly impossible; the "clamp" may have to be removed and reinstalled and even this can be hard if it is a mechanical device rather than a prusik.

If double ropes are being used, communication is effective, and the leader is using a guide plate, then a rope ascent can be improvised with no extra gear for the second. The second ties a foot loop in one rope and places their foot in it. The belayer pulls that rope up for as high a step as the follower can manage. The follower steps up, the rope they are standing on locks in the belay plate, and the leader takes in the other strand running to the follower's harness. The follower sits back on their harness and the process is repeated. The leader should try to haul the ropes hard to take some of the stretch out, otherwise upward progress may be minimal.

Rich - you'd never to do 6-1 or 9-1 short haul off a bomber anchor? I've done it on occasion (a few years ago) to help my wife on short roof sections of climbs I pressured her into doing and which were otherwise fun for her. Worked fine but was short and we could hear each other.

OP: I would do a refresh on prussking. I practiced it for thr first time in years recently. Was a little rusty at first but was very easy after a few minutes. Much better to have ever the confidence to do it before you have a tough situation.

Thanks for the replies on this. I too thought untying was odd but as the less experienced person and our lack of ability to communicate I went along.

I have prussiked before pretty comfortably but it just did not occur to me to do that as a first choice. I now know better. I have gone out with a guide a few times thus far and I think my next session will be a self rescue skills day.

I agree the second should have gear and know how to do whatever might be necessary to go up or down safely if the need arises.

There's quite a few lessons here that I am taking with me. I'm glad nothing bad happened. I didn't feel flustered or really endangered at any point. Perhaps that's when most accidents happen. Anyway thank you for the insight. Much to learn.

neils wrote:FYI it was shockley's ceiling in the gunks

My wife and I found ourselves in a similar situation a while back. I even expected her to have difficulty with it and it still didn't go well. I had planned to belay directly above the roof, but got there and didn't have the right sized gear for an anchor so I ran it out to the top. She fell on the roof then set up prussiks to ascend the rope, but it was our new skinny rope and her prussiks are a little on the fat side. Turned out she couldn't get them to catch on the rope. Ended up lowering her to the ledge and then she rested before pulling through the roof on gear.

You made it down safely so that counts for something, but I got a little nervous when I read that you untied. There's a good chance that you could have ended up stranded on a ledge with only a single piece of gear while your partner was unable to reach you. As always, Rgold's post nicely sums up your potential options for that scenario.

I think untying was dumb. I think not having a clear plan between us in advance was also a dumb mistake. There is a real chance when he rapped down he wouldn't have been able to get to me. I learned that just because someone has been climbing for a long time doesn't mean they know everything or necessarily more than the person who hadn't been. As I untied the rope I had a thought like "really? Untie? Isn't that like the main thing I shouldn't do?" But I didn't feel like I was really in a position to argue.

Next time I discuss this with a partner in advance and go...up if need be.

I am still on the fence if doing the climb at all was really a mistake. I really was very close to getting it. It wasn't too far out of my range. An extra piece of pro being there would have helped to pull on but alas it was not. Had I known I would have asked him to place something if possible or perhaps he should have known to do that. I'm not sure. Not blaming anyone.

neils wrote: I am still on the fence if doing the climb at all was really a mistake. I really was very close to getting it. It wasn't too far out of my range. An extra piece of pro being there would have helped to pull on but alas it was not. Had I known I would have asked him to place something if possible or perhaps he should have known to do that. I'm not sure. Not blaming anyone.

Nothing wrong with trying a climb you can't get up, as long as your leader can rap or lower from an anchor back to you. You don't have to prusik or aid to the top, but you should discuss with your partner what you're going to do if you can't make it.

I've untied before at a bolted anchor after my partner finished the climb, then he rapped back to me. I realize that was a bolted anchor, which is different from being clipped into a single cam, but just the act of untying isn't necessarily dangerous. It depends on the situation, but not always that big of a deal.

Logan Schiff wrote:Rich - you'd never to do 6-1 or 9-1 short haul off a bomber anchor? I've done it on occasion (a few years ago) to help my wife on short roof sections of climbs I pressured her into doing and which were otherwise fun for her. Worked fine but was short and we could hear each other.

With a perfectly healthy second? No. For short sections of climbs known ahead of time to possibly be beyond the abilities of the second, I'd count on the second aiding them. Knowing what is coming, bringing along an alpine aider or even a full big-wall ladder might make things easier. But I believe firmly that the second should be able to take care of themselves. If they can't, then sooner or later an unnecessarily nasty situation is going to arise.

Re: the prussiking solution, a few questions.

First, I can't see getting around a long, bulgy sort of roof, with your weight holding the rope tight to the rock. How can you move prussiks up?

Second, what happens to the slack you are accumulating? Tie knots and clip them as you go?

Last, if you aren't in good communication with your belayer, how will they know what's going on, and what to do on their end? As a belayer, it would get sorta worrisome to have a rope not doing anything, weighted or not.

Read the other thread, OP. Glad ya took a shot at it!

I haven't read all the replies but imo you should have prussucked and then either aided or French freed. On multipitch you won't always have the options of lowering in that situation (air all the way down). Communicate before you get started on these potentials and you can avoid 99% of issues. Glad it worked it out.. The lessons we make it through are the best ones we learn.

Old lady H wrote:Re: the prussiking solution, a few questions. First, I can't see getting around a long, bulgy sort of roof, with your weight holding the rope tight to the rock. How can you move prussiks up? Second, what happens to the slack you are accumulating? Tie knots and clip them as you go? Last, if you aren't in good communication with your belayer, how will they know what's going on, and what to do on their end? As a belayer, it would get sorta worrisome to have a rope not doing anything, weighted or not. Read the other thread, OP. Glad ya took a shot at it!

You (or the OP) probably got on the pitch because it was within your limits and you just got pumped out. In which case you'd climb it after resting and prusiking up to the roof to try it again. But if not, you would prusik to the roof (the first piece at the roof) and then plug a piece, to either aid/and or french free it.

The slack is not usually an issues if there is air below you. I'm sure people can chime in with various bow line on a bite solutions for you if you are worried about that but if you already fell that much what's the big deal if it happens again (not gonna happen).

Lastly, your belayer should know if there is tension on the system to chill for a while and let you do your thing. If he is there for a long ass time with nothing from you then he may look to escape the belay and come down to check on you.

Old lady H wrote:Re: the prussiking solution, a few questions. First, I can't see getting around a long, bulgy sort of roof, with your weight holding the rope tight to the rock. How can you move prussiks up?

Sometimes you can use a hand or footholds underneath the bulge to push away from the roof and create some space between rope and rock. Unweighting the rope by using an aid piece is a possible solution in some cases. But sometimes it may not be possible to get a knot past the lip of a ceiling. If all else fails, you either have to untie the upper prusik and re-install it above the lip or, better, use another sling to install a prusik above the lip and move your connection to that.

Old lady H wrote:Second, what happens to the slack you are accumulating? Tie knots and clip them as you go?

Yes, definitely.

Old lady H wrote: Last, if you aren't in good communication with your belayer, how will they know what's going on, and what to do on their end? As a belayer, it would get sorta worrisome to have a rope not doing anything, weighted or not.

When overhangs are involved, the party should have discussed the fact that the second might have to prusik and the leader should be prepared for a long wait with a loaded rope. But as I said above, the best option is for the second to aid the obstacle.

If the leader protects with a #2 Camalot at the lip, it would be the only aid piece you'd need for Shockley's.

rgold wrote:The best choice is for the second to aid the obstacle---if they have cleaned gear that can be used. The leader should if possible place a piece or two at the obstacle that the second could clip for aid.

In rereading this I believe I understand what you are saying is the best choice if possible. In this case I know I had a red camalot with me, not a gold - I don't recall what else. Perhaps I could have used it to aid past the obstacle. It was originally placed under the roof, not at the lip.

Let me ask this rather than start a new thread...you basically answered it but for clarification...in general, and not specific to this situation...if a potential problem spot is discussed in advance or if, as a more experienced leader, should you place gear with this kind of situation in mind? Mindset being let me place a lot of gear to help him if he needs it or place it at critical spots if that is possible? It seems that a leader would ideally have that in mind if they know the second might have an issue.

Again, I'm not blaming my partner for this or saying he didn't do what he should but for my own information as I grow as a climber. As a second if I have some beta on the route or know there might be a tough spot would you ever ask your leader..."Hey dude, can you try to place something there if you can so I can use it if I need to? I'm a little worried about that move." Is that a thing? As a second is it your responsibility to ask for that or is it even good form to do so?