Eldo anchors

will smith wrote: short answer "YES" they care as do the rest of us leave shit alone you obviously know nothing about

Guideline #1: don't be a jerk

The author is not an idiot. He has a good understanding of hardware, climbing or otherwise. He also climbs in Eldo a lot.

Colin Simon wrote: Guideline #1: don't be a jerk The author is not an idiot. He has a good understanding of hardware, climbing or otherwise. He also climbs in Eldo a lot.

For climbing in Eldo a lot he sure seems clueless about the local ethics.

While I'm sure his intentions are good, if every person with good intentions went and altered hardware in Eldo it would be a complete disaster. This is why ACE is such a critical institution for preserving the climbing experience in the canyon. If he climbs in Eldo a lot he should know this.

I think the harsh reaction is to the OPs flippant attitude towards (not) going through ACE because he climbed in yosemite.

jason.cre wrote: For climbing in Eldo a lot he sure seems clueless about the local ethics. While I'm sure his intentions are good, if every person with good intentions went and altered hardware in Eldo it would be a complete disaster. This is why ACE is such a critical institution for preserving the climbing experience in the canyon. If he climbs in Eldo a lot he should know this. I think the harsh reaction is to the OPs flippant attitude towards (not) going through ACE because he climbed in yosemite.

Define complete disaster?

Equalized chains on anchors is hardly an extinction level event. Threads like this make me realize how much I hate most of you front range fuckers. I'm glad the rest of the country doesn't act like you.

303scott wrote:The problem with random folks adding chains is they don't know or care what the bolt materials are made of. If you mix metals between bolts and chains (e.g. carbon and stainless steel) you are likely to cause galvanic corrosion which may lead to premature failure. You may also be altering an anchor from a belay to a rap station. Please check with ACE.

Many experts on here disagree with this really being an issue... FYI. Mixed bolts yes, but the chains/hangers mix isn't an issue (from what I read on here).

jason.cre wrote: I think the harsh reaction is to the OPs flippant attitude towards (not) going through ACE because he climbed in yosemite.

I really hope you're joking otherwise I think you need to try your hand at re-reading his posts. Seems to be concerned and is asking for advice... hardly flippant. Highaltitude seems to have a point given most the reactions on this page to a rather harmless question and someone who is looking to learn the right way.

This is a good opportunity for the seasoned vets to steer his energy in the right direction and modify the anchor in an ideal way.

Seems like a nice thing to do, add chains to the Back In Black Anchors. I'm not sure why everyone's panty's got in such a bunch. How does that change the route (for the worse) at all?
I've been climbing in Eldo for 36 years and I guess I still don't understand the local ethics.

Keenan Waeschle wrote:I believe that the hangers on back in black are the big ss ones, maybe made by metolius. I was going to add a section of spray painted 5/16 ss chain using a fixe quicklink. I thought that this would be a fine thing to do, as it improves the experience of climbing the route. I wanted to check to see if such a simple act required jumping through the ACE hoops, that is all. I've replaced many lead and belay bolts that were unsafe in Yosemite, with a unanimously positive reception. I am qualified to tighten a quicklink. I thought that giving back to a community would be a fine thing to do, but I guess things are different in the front range.

Hi Keenan, thanks for providing specifics. I believe that route is slated for bolt replacement (permit is already in the hands of the bolt replacement crew) and typically the new anchors consist of a couple quicklinks or those fancy double ring hangers. I agree with you, those fat metolious hangers suck for pretty much any application including rappelling. I wish they would stop making them but that is my own opinion. Anyway, since they should be getting replaced soon, I wouldn't waste your money on chains. In the short term you could just link back and black with the pitch above it (blanking on name) and rap from the nicer anchor setup on that route with two ropes. It makes for a great pitch and no more kinks. If you ever have any questions regarding anchors in Eldo, contact ACE, they are a lot nicer than most of the people responding to this thread and they have a great database of the fixed hardware in eldo.

Luckily, I can't think of too many other anchors in eldo that have those Metolius Hangers, and like I said, all of the replacement involves using links or the double ring hangers.

Keenan Waeschle wrote:.... I wanted to check to see if such a simple act required jumping through the ACE hoops, that is all. I....... but I guess things are different in the front range.

If they were well disguised and out of sight, I personally would not lose sleep, however, it still seems superfluous - if that's what your asking - but ACE might, a quick check with them would be easy and the appropriate channel, see my previous post for that recommendation, everything past the 'edit to add' came from their website and that of Eldo, ad can be found with a quick google search.

Monty wrote: Luckily, I can't think of too many other anchors in eldo that have those Metolius Hangers, and like I said, all of the replacement involves using links or the double ring hangers.

Thanks for the clear response! Indeed the wide spaced setup with big hangers isn't super common. I have found the double ring hangers can still snarl ropes, but not as badly. But I'm hearing you right in that the anchors such as those found on the vertigo raps are not standard for new hardwear? i.e. 2 vertically oriented bolts connected by chain with one ring.

As far as other routes that are not super critical: The anchors on the Wisdom are all wide. The P3 anchor, which is shared with Huck off and Hands in the Clouds (One could conceivably lower off of the two of those), is two big hangers.

I haven't been on/looked at the replaced anchors on the roof routes that were replaced last fall. I'm assuming they are all equalized in some way?

Cheers

It really would be a complete circus if there was no Committee to guide things. Especially at Eldo! This thread has been great.

Keenan, I would be interested in hearing why you prefer vertically aligning anchor bolts. Personally, I definitely prefer horizontally-aligned anchors, but I've never really thought about it except for some cases where multiple anchor bolts are in a potentially sketchy piece of rock. I find that bolt configuration really does nothing kinky to ropes compared to the Megajul.

Speaking for myself here, not on behalf of ACE:

When you consider the cost of material the vertical anchor often gives the most bang for the buck: a somewhat equalized point with half the amount of chain purchased. Recent installations like this are the anchor atop Scorpions and the rap from the summit pitch of Point Break.

mountainproject.com/scripts…
mountainproject.com/scripts…

In most cases we are making every effort to re-use holes and not drill new ones, so side-by-side anchors have remained side-by-side. Double-ring hangers do a fairly good job of not kinking a rope when pulling it after a rappel, so that is the standard. Chains are necessary when the pull is over an edge, but adding chains to make it easier to top rope/lower through the fixed gear is definitely a lower priority than replacing actual bad bolts. The calculation goes something like this - Do we want to purchase more bolts and hangers? Or do we also purchase more chain and quicklinks thereby making lowering through fixed gear more attractive? (...leading to purchasing replacement quicklinks sooner.)

Visual impact matters to the park rangers and to ACE as well. With convenience as the only favorable factor I think a dozen new sets of chains would probably not be welcome. That said - you can submit a proposal.

For the record - the Metolius fat hangers do suck. They coil up ropes. They also rust (not stainless). The Back in Black anchor will be replaced soon.

Keenan Waeschle wrote:I was going to add a section of spray painted 5/16 ss chain using a fixe quicklink.

I am not sure if there is a 'standard' or 'recommended' size for quick links and chain, but I think in the spirit of using the best possible hardware 3/8" should be the choice. What do others think?

BTW, I like Gregger's idea of double ring hangers. Sometimes it is pretty easy to remove the existing hangers and put on the double ring ones.

Keenan Waeschle wrote:Many anchors in Eldorado Canyon are spaced bolts without chains, and cause a rope threaded through them to twist into unmanageable snarls when one lowers off a route. Is there anything stopping chains from being installed on these things?

Ideally, you should never lower off a fixed anchor as stated by Keenan. Much better to rappel off, and use your own gear if top-roping. This prevents premature wear on the anchor!

Also, rappelling off the type of anchor like on back in black rather than lowering causes less kinking because the rope is not weighted when being pulled through the anchor.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: I am not sure if there is a 'standard' or 'recommended' size for quick links and chain, but I think in the spirit of using the best possible hardware 3/8" should be the choice. What do others think? BTW, I like Gregger's idea of double ring hangers. Sometimes it is pretty easy to remove the existing hangers and put on the double ring ones.

We've purchased 5/16" SS proof coil chain for most of the rappel anchors (8,800 lb breaking strength). If you are belaying off a chain anchor and could possibly need to catch a factor-2 fall, you should be clipped into the hangers - regardless, you won't be breaking chain that size. 3/8" for the final link does offer a longer-wearing surface, but that size link won't go through 5/16 chain so you'd need to do chain-5/16 q-link-3/8 q-link. It gets relatively expensive when you multiply that by many anchors.

jason.cre wrote: The problem is this: Man decides he wants to top rope climbs at eldo. Wants to alter existing hardware to make this possible. Asks if there is a governing body that would help make a decision on this. Community answers yes, there is a governing body that would care and you should contact them. Man decides to ignore advice, go do shit without consulting governing body.

So you either misunderstand his posts, you misread them, or you failed to read them at all, because he never even hinted at going around the ACE. Then you violate rule 1 by being a total dick.

Besides, what's the big deal with adding chains to a bolted anchor atop a single pitch climb, provided they are adequately camoed/discrete? It's not like you're scaring the rock since there's already a bolted anchor. Would you rather have people walk off or walk over to a rap station, potentially disturbing the local flora and fauna. The northeast has seen how this can turn out and it can turn into a very ugly situation. It's totally understandable that ACE doesn't want to spend money on chains, but Keenan is offering to put in the money and time/effort to install hardware.

Gregger Man wrote: We've purchased 5/16" SS proof coil chain for most of the rappel anchors (8,800 lb breaking strength). If you are belaying off a chain anchor and could possibly need to catch a factor-2 fall, you should be clipped into the hangers - regardless, you won't be breaking chain that size. 3/8" for the final link does offer a longer-wearing surface, but that size link won't go through 5/16 chain so you'd need to do chain-5/16 q-link-3/8 q-link. It gets relatively expensive when you multiply that by many anchors.

Gregger,

what size quick link do you use with the 5/16" chain? I have had problems in the past getting 5/16" chain into a 3/8" quick link without damaging the threads of the quick link. That's why I use 3/8" chain. Have you had the same problem?

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Gregger, what size quick link do you use with the 5/16" chain? I have had problems in the past getting 5/16" chain into a 3/8" quick link without damaging the threads of the quick link. That's why I use 3/8" chain. Have you had the same problem?

Yes. A 3/8" q-link won't go through a 5/16" chain link. You have to do do chain->5/16 q-link->3/8 q-link, or better yet make the final link a SS Fixe welded rap ring. The 10mm stock will just go through a 5/16" link.
(plated q-link & plated 3/8" chain link are all I have in the shop here):
5/16" link opening measurement = ~0.4"/10.2mm

Sounds like almost everyone is understanding the original poster's point of view...and I concur!

I also do not like side by side Fixe slotted hangers with single rings, Metolius Rap Hangers (or any similar configuration). These set-ups almost always twist the rope when pulling after rappelling and worse when you need to lower to clean a steep route. Totally bogus! It's essentially an "American-Triangle" and I have seen so many anchor set ups like this with loose nuts/bolts and even wobbly bolts, especially when placed in less dense/solid rock. I see these anchor styles all over the west and installed by experienced climbers, but I think this set-up sucks. Sure it is less visually obtrusive but functionally I feel it is inferior.

Of course...all metals involved must match and preferably the metal be stainless for longevity.

this is what I do not like... - pic on right shows anchor I am talking about which does twist the rope - pic on left shows how you should rig it while top-roping (also illustrates what it will functionally look like if chains are added)

this pic shows the basic idea of horizontal bolts with equal length chain (bomber and with low chance of twisting plus multiple points to clip into)

an example of vertically aligned bolts equalized with 1 chain, also bomber