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Remove the Chasm View rappels on The Diamond?

Original Post
Tank Evans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 135
As a preface: This is an attempt at getting a legitimate, informed discussion going, so please do not chime in if you have not climbed the North Chimney and also done the Chasm View rappels.

The issue: I, and others, believe the Chasm View rappels should be removed because they endanger people in the North Chimney, on Mills Glacier, and on the rappels themselves. This has become increasingly apparent with the growing number of climbers on the Diamond.

Justification:The Chasm View rappel route is littered with loose rock, which gets dislodged by human error during rappels and also just by pulling the ropes. Furthermore, the section of broadway below the rappels is extremely loose with numerous large blocks. The rockfall caused by people rappeling and pulling ropes, though rarely making it to the North Chimney, rains down on Mills Glacier below, where people may be approaching or waiting for other parties to exit the North Chimney. Additionally, climbers traversing broadway from the rappels to access the left side routes cross directly above the North Chimney and often dislodge rock that goes tumbling straight down the chimney. This is exacerbated by the fact that many of these people rope up for that traversing section, which increases the chances of dislodging rocks.

People take the Chasm View rappel route to avoid the dangers of the North Chimney, but in doing so make the North Chimney far more dangerous for everyone else. It is my opinion that if you do not feel ready to climb the North Chimney, even if you have to rope up for the couple of short steep sections, then you should wait to climb the Diamond until you feel ready.

FINAL UPDATE
I'd like to thank everyone for their thoughtful contributions, it is rare that things work out this way in public forums. I take that as a strong indication that this is a real concern to our community and something we can work to address.

I will take what we have gathered here to the climbing rangers as a first step. I am thinking a mid to late September weekend to do the "trail" work on broadway and the North Chimney.

I think a crew of 4 could get this done easily in a weekend. Mid to late September would be ideal because it will be too cold to climb by then, don't want to waste a splitter weekend on the Big D toiling :) Also, we won't have to worry about chossing anyone.

I may be reaching out again to some of you when it gets closer to that time for volunteers.

Cheers,
Joe

UPDATE:

I appreciate all the input and I think it is safe to say that removing the chasm view raps is not in favor. Any ideas? Would a fixed line down the chasm view raps help by eliminating rock fall due to the rope pull? A fixed line on the lower east face is not practical because it will get blasted by rockfall.

All I am trying to accomplish at this point now is to have some sort of "best practices" to employ when climbing up there. Disseminating these through word of mouth when climbing up there would even help.

I really like climbing up there but honestly the increase in [inexperienced] climber traffic up there scares the crap out of me.

UPDATE V2:

Wow, I gotta say I am kind of shocked with how productive this has been, score one for MP which is otherwise just a heinous troll-fest.

Here is what I have gathered as a viable step forward that could be brought to the attention of the climbing rangers...

1. Fix a line down the Chasm View raps to eliminate rope pull induced rock fall.

2. Trundle and stabilize a small path from the base of the raps to the left-side of hte north chimney, with special attention to the area directly above the chimney.

3. Fix a small line across the top of the north chimney to secure people for the traverse to avoid them roping up.

4. Bolt some belays with visible hardware up the "approved" slab section of the north Chimney towards the top to help people stay on route and not venture into the horrible choss above.

5. Include a better topo and description of the "approved" North Chimney route here on MP.

6. Educate people doing stupid stuff in the North Chimney and on Broadway in as tactful way as possible. (This one may never happen in any real way).

I see this as an actionable plan to mitigate some of the risk up there that could probably be done in a day with a team of 4. Better than the "DON'T CHOSS ME BRO!" system currently in place.
Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

No.

Climbers dislodge a ton of rock from the North Chimney too. All this will do is increase traffic there and reduce options. The whole zone is dangerous. Rocks will fall and it will only get worse as the Diamond gets more crowded. Erasing an established rap route is not the answer (nor is there one). It's my opinion that just because climbers like us would never have a need to use that approach doesn't mean we have the right to remove it.

Want to minimize risks? A) Get up earlier. B) Climb a different approach route on the Lower East Face.

Monty · · Golden, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 3,520

Yes.

I've always avoided the Chasm View Raps for the reasons you listed above. Having witnessed firsthand loose rock pouring into the N Chimney from parties on the Chasm View Raps, I see no harm in removing them (or a least the first anchor).

Very few parties utilize those raps anyway and blocking off that access wont drastically change the number of parties in the N Chimney.

Tank Evans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 135
Josh Janes wrote:It's my opinion that just because climbers like us would never have a need to use that approach doesn't mean we have the right to remove it.
This is why I am not making a unilateral decision here, and trying to engage the community.

And I disagree that there is not a solution. I would estimate 90% of the rockfall I have seen in the North Chimney is from the Chasm View raps or people lost in no-man's land at the top of the chimney. I believe following some simple best practices when climbing the North Chimney would drastically reduce the rockfall hazard, es evident by the fact that I, and almost everyone I have climbed with up there, have never sent a single substantial rock down the North Chimney while climbing it.
Monty · · Golden, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 3,520
George Perkins wrote:I do not think they should be removed. There may be circumstances in which they are appropriate or highly helpful. I would, however, advise that the North Chimney be used as the preferred, recommended, default route to access the Diamond. It's more aesthetic, requires less hiking, allows for a better bivi site, and I don't think it's unreasonably loose for a climber considering the Diamond.
Just to play devils advocate, how would going down camel gulley not be a solution to any circumstances that would require one to rap the chasm view raps?
Colin Simon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 370

Mr Mills, you've likely thought about all of these, but here are some ideas to consider:

-People expect the anchors to be there. Every guidebook, mountainproject page, blog...etc needs to be updated or people will show up expecting them to exist.

-Stubborn climbers may make a nest of nuts, webbing...etc, especially if they didn't get the memo.

-I have used the rappels to run multiple laps on the Diamond, summitting each time. I wasn't planning on it, so I only had one 70m rope, which was fine for the chasm view raps. It was cool to be able to make that call on the fly.

-Wall-style teams do still go up there once in a while. Chasm view raps seem like the ideal way to access the right side aid routes.

-The chasm view raps seem like something rescue teams would consider a valuable resource. Of course if it means less north chimney body recoveries, they wouldn't need that sort of resource as much. I think it would make sense to talk to them as well.

Charles Vernon · · Colorado megalopolis · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 2,655

I'm not sure I understand the logic. If I'm heading up the North Chimney and there's another party that got up earlier than me heading for the Diamond, I would rather that party be using the Chasm View raps, instead of being directly above me in the chimney. In both cases I'll potentially be exposed to rockfall, but the party in the chimney will unquestionably knock it directly down toward me. The party doing the raps will likely knock it to the right of me except for when they're on the final portion of the Broadway traverse.

For reference, I have never done the Chasm raps, but have been up the N. Chimney at least 15 times. At few of those times, there were parties doing the Chasm View raps. I remember rockfall from those parties, but not anything that scared me like the times I've been below parties in the chimney.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

If you remove them, they'll get replaced with tat. Might as well leave good ones there. There is no way to prevent people from rapping there if they want to.

Tank Evans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 135

So far I have heard mostly arguments to leave for the sake of convenience, which is a weak argument in the face of safety.

Proliferation of tat is a valid argument, but perhaps removing the shiny rap route would help get the message out that it is not a recommended method.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Tank Evans wrote:So far I have heard mostly arguments to leave for the sake of convenience, which is a weak argument in the face of safety. Proliferation of tat is a valid argument, but perhaps removing the shiny rap route would help get the message out that it is not a recommended method.
I've never taken that rap route and don't plan to, so whatever. I just think that short of an armed guard, you'll never get people to stop using it.

Is there a way to educate the climbing community about the potential dangers of loose rock (other than this thread of course)?

Also, I want to hear the near miss story that must have prompted this post.
Colin Simon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 370

If a team is hell-bent on carrying a haulbag up there, don't you think dragging it all the way up the north chimney is more dangerous for them, and more dangerous for anyone below them?

What about the rescue teams?

CanDillo · · The Great State -Colorado · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 280

Having been bombed in North Chimney just a few weeks back by a party using the Chasm View raps myself. I would have a biased opinion for removal. However, points made by other people like Colin suggesting easier access for Rescue crew, etc. would be a decent reason in my mind to leave them. However, it seems re-education of people utilizing Park Resources is a necessity. Also, as mentioned in another thread similar to this, having a required entrance register for Diamond routes on the way into the park, like the TH in the Black Canyon, could help alleviate the recent maelstrom of Diamond suitors.

Tank Evans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 135
Colin Simon wrote:If a team is hell-bent on carrying a haulbag up there, don't you think dragging it all the way up the north chimney is more dangerous for them, and more dangerous for anyone below them? What about the rescue teams?
In the 40+ times I have been up on the diamond, I have yet to see an aid party hauling a bag. I am sure it happens, but including every edge-case scenario is a little out of the scope of the discussion.

Edit: Also I would add, DON'T HAUL A BAG ON THE DIAMOND!

As for rescue parties, I think stripping off the top anchor might be the best option to discourage recreational users, while maintaining convenience for rescue crews. An anchor at the top could be constructed in a jiffy by slinging the block with the current anchor. This would need to be directed though to the actual rescue workers for input
Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954
Tank Evans wrote:So far I have heard mostly arguments to leave for the sake of convenience, which is a weak argument in the face of safety. Proliferation of tat is a valid argument, but perhaps removing the shiny rap route would help get the message out that it is not a recommended method.
There are plenty of safer, albeit less convient, ways to approach Broadway such as getting up earlier or using an alternate route on the Lower East Face. Or rapping Chasm View yourself for that matter. For the record it would suit me just fine if they were removed but I don't think they should be.

But Colin and Charles really nailed it.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Tank Evans wrote:So far I have heard mostly arguments to leave for the sake of convenience, which is a weak argument in the face of safety.
Funny, I have yet to hear any objective arguement for safety in your proposal.

Having done both, and knowing of problems and dangers on both, and having friends that got injured (by others) on the Chimney, I have a question or two about that.

Remind me or inform me here, of what objective measure makes the N. Chimney safer for anyone/all than the Chasm View?
That thing is plagued by loose rock and invites soloing (fine with me, but certainly a potential hazard). I doubt that crowding it more isn't going to help.

Factor in, of course, that one can NOT presume that removal of the CV raps will insure that the climbers will use any particular alternative, letalone the one you want them to. If fact, if they are using that, it seems to me that they are deliberately eschewing your preferred methods already.
Tank Evans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 135
Josh Janes wrote: There are plenty of safer, albeit less convient, ways to approach Broadway such as getting up earlier...
Haha, you've been gone too long Josh :) Unless you want to start at 9pm the preceding night you are unlikely to be alone in the North Chimney, not to mention that tactic is not a solution only an arms race to who can get up earliest.

Tony B wrote: Remind me or inform me here, of what objective measure makes the N. Chimney safer for anyone/all than the Chasm View?
The only objective measure I have, albeit qualitative, is that I have only seen one case of truly deadly rockfall dislodged by a climber in the North Chimney. In contrast, I don't know if I have ever seen someone come down the Chasm View raps and NOT dislodge something catastrophic.

Edit: I should add that I myself have sent a a solid amount of rock down off the raps while descending to retrieve a poop bag off broadway at the end of the day, afterwards vowing never to do them again.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Tank Evans wrote: The only objective measure I have, albeit qualitative, is that I have only seen one case of truly deadly rockfall dislodged by a climber in the North Chimney. In contrast, I don't know if I have ever seen someone come down the Chasm View raps and NOT dislodge something catastrophic. Edit: I should add that I myself have sent a a solid amount of rock down off the raps while descending to retrieve a poop bag off broadway at the end of the day, afterwards vowing never to do them again.
That's not objective, nor comparative when it comes to 'data' as opposed to anecdote.
If anecdotes will suffice, I'll refer the discussion (just did by EMail) to some pals of mine who have been nailed on the N. Chimney, or were up on Chasm View listening to the endless procession of large rocks going down it on given days. I suspect some will chime in soon. One of them was recently hospitalized by a rock from an above party in that chimney.

For my own part, I've not had much a problem on either, but I solo the NC for fear of the rope knocking down stuff, but would not do so with people above me, for fear of THEM knocking down stuff. It doesn't take much rock to kill you when you are soloing. As for CV, I have yet to knock anything off of it when I have taken it.

In all earnestness, I think that any action that reduces options will crowd the remaining, and that would be the 'route of all evil' when it comes to danger.

Edit to add: I appreciate the effort you've made to open the discussion here and that you did not take unilateral action based on your experiences and impressions alone. I do think that the additional opinions presented offer the opportunity to review and remind ourselves that one's own impression or interpretation is often different than a clear consensus - which frequently does not exist. In the absent of a very clear consensus, the right action to take is often none, or at least not one that changes the options of others.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Tank Evans wrote: The only objective measure I have, albeit qualitative, is that I have only seen one case of truly deadly rockfall dislodged by a climber in the North Chimney. In contrast, I don't know if I have ever seen someone come down the Chasm View raps and NOT dislodge something catastrophic.
I admit I haven't been up there in over a decade, but I've used both approaches, plus the Cracks of Delight.

When doing the CV raps, I don't remember knocking off anything at all and there had to be a lot more loose rock back then. So I have a hard time visualizing catastrophic rockfall from every party. Have they been moved? Or shortened to allow a single rope? They were double-rope raps BITD.

Removing the rap-route will only increase the traffic in the North Chimney and there goes any additional safety.

If you really want to increase safety in the NC, mark the best route, clean out a bunch of the loose rock, and fix some etriers/ropes to increase the speed of the climbers and keep them from having to pull/stand on mossy, wet, icy choss.
Bill Wright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 440

I disagree with removing the Chasm View anchors, but this discussion has been enlightening to me. I don't have nearly the experience of some of the climbers here. I've been up the Diamond maybe 15 times, so my experiences might have been unusual. With one exception I've always done the North Chimney approach and it has been fine for me, even with crowds. I once passed seven parties in the North Chimney to be the first party on the Diamond and that was only two years ago!.

Last year I had an experience that scarred me. I arrived at the base of the North Chimney in the dark (very early for me) and found many parties in the Chimney and way too far to the right. They were regularly bombing rocks down on us as we geared it. I got smacked in the head with a rock (just below my helmet, which was on) and a microwave-sized block hit within twenty feet of me - a guaranteed death if it struck me. We bailed, fearing for our lives.

Since then I told myself I was going to do the Chasm View Rappels instead. I knew some people did that but I don't think I'd ever seen someone coming that way before (in only my 15 ascents). I approached via the Chasm View raps just once, when I was doing the Longs Peak Triathlon with support and my friends carried all our gear up to the rappels. This was in September and we were the only ones on the wall. We did the rappels and the traverse without knocking anything down the wall and I didn't think it was particularly prone to rockfall, provided you are unroped. We did it by rappelling 200 feet on one rope and then just one more rappel on our doubled lead line, so we only pulled the rope once and only 100 feet of rope and I don't remember any rockfall. Our friends cleaned the fixed rope, but my future plane was to leave the rope there and retrieve it on the descent.

If you really want to make the approach to the Diamond safer, banning this rappel route isn't the solution. A much better solution is to ban the North Chimney approach. That way no one is in the line of the rockfall. I'm not advocating this and would leave it open to climbers to make those decisions for themselves.

For me, I'm either climbing the North Chimney at midnight (or does it really have to be 9 p.m.?) or doing the Chasm View rappel approach. Banning rappels does NOT solve the problem of huge numbers of climbers raining rocks down the North Chimney. I fully agree that you can climb this route without rockfall, even roped up, and I claim to have done this every time up it. But the fact is that some others parties don't do this. I was hoping that my experience last year was unique, but from everything I've read since then, it is becoming the norm.

So, I saw leave the rappel anchors, because I (or someone else) will put something back in anyway.

Your comment about waiting until you're "ready to climb the North Chimney" surprises me. That isn't the issue. If you're climbing the Diamond, you can climb the North Chimney. So, you must be advocating that everyone solo the North Chimney? No way. Not with all the soloists sending rocks down.

The issue is risk management. If you really want the Diamond approach to be safer (and I've never been an advocate of making rock climbing a risk-free sport), you should ban the North Chimney approach in the months of July and August and make everyone approach via Chasm View with a fixed 300-foot rappel line that is never pulled down.

Chris N · · Loveland, Co · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 590

No .... and replace the cable!

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
Tank Evans wrote: In contrast, I don't know if I have ever seen someone come down the Chasm View raps and NOT dislodge something catastrophic.
I have rapped in via Chasm View and not pulled single rock down with me. Now I am pretty diligent about where I run my rope when rapping, and I am only one data point, so perhaps I am not a good example. Still, my example clearly shows that you can rap CV without causing a catastrophe for those in NC. Personally I still think coming in via CV sucks because if there is snow on Broadway, then the traverse can be pretty sketchy without a rope, which as you state creates another opportunity for generating rockfall.

Thus having done the CV raps, I wouldn't use them in the future. Nevertheless, I still don't think you should remove the anchors. I feel like you are dictating what you think to be the safest way to do something in the mountains despite the fact that your opinion is based on completely anecdotal evidence (there is no way you have been up to the Diamond enough times to create a reasonable sample size). Personally I am way more afraid of rockfall from others above me in NC than I am from rockfall coming in from CV, which really negates your whole safety point.

To be clear Tank, I think its great that you started a thread like this instead of taking action unilaterally. Cheers.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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