Bolted Slab routes - trad, or sport?

Russ Keane wrote:Can it really be trad if you never place a single piece of gear?

Yes. Look at the Needles of South Dakota. Many routes are "traditional" meaning they went in ground up, bolted by hand drills, from free stances. Some routes may have no gear at all and only a few bolts, say 2. I would say this is trad.

sport: bolts the standard 6-8 feet, on rappel trad: hand drilled bolts where the FA can/wants to put them, ground up from stances funny how the latter was the ethical standard until steeper 5.11/12 became a thing, then even the purists started hanging to hand drill bolts... and then slippery slope to the dreaded rap bolting with power drills ensued</

Plus leaving quick draws in place ..even on multi pitch climbs such a El Cap ... Indoors to outdoors

csproul wrote: NC sport route Zues NC sport route Blind Prophet Not a NC sport route Great White Way Not a NC sport route Mercury's Yet all are bolt protected

Most 5.11 + generally well protected but there are alot of routes that are not. Over the last few years they have gone back and added a ton of bolts at pilot to make alot of them safe that were not.

Doesn't make it right,,unless the f/a team is OK with it.

I feel that the ethics of the area are a big factor to how routes get done.

As USBRIT (above) once said "people get jealous because they didn't do it first"

ViperScale wrote: Most 5.11 + generally well protected but there are alot of routes that are not.

If they are not well protected then they are not sport routes.

john strand wrote:Doesn't make it right,,unless the f/a team is OK with it.

Doesn't make it right even then when a route has been done for years the way it was.

A good starting point: was the route put up before the early 80's? If so, it's probably a climb, since sport climbing as we know it hadn't come into existence. Also that feeling like I'm gonna poop my pants...that doesn't happen on sport routes so that's how I know.

kennoyce wrote: If they are not well protected then they are not sport routes.

So stone mountain only has 2-3 sport routes I guess based on that. Even though there are dozen of routes with zero possible trad placement. Do you consider that light-free soloing when gear is 30ft apart on 5.10+ with no possible trad placement?

I would say maybe 20% of routes in NC that are climbed with only bolts are sport based on that basis compared to other states I have been to.

They need to come up with a new term for routes that are R / X / PG13 and are intended to only be climbed with bolts.

ViperScale wrote: So stone mountain only has 2-3 sport routes I guess based on that. Even though there are dozen of routes with zero possible trad placement. Do you consider that light-free soloing when gear is 30ft apart on 5.10+ with no possible trad placement? I would say maybe 20% of routes in NC that are climbed with only bolts are sport based on that basis compared to other states I have been to. They need to come up with a new term for routes that are R / X / PG13 and are intended to only be climbed with bolts.

That is correct.

The rest are bolt-protected traditional climbs.

It's all about the FA we can argue semantics till we are blue in the face, but ultimately style is what makes the distinction. If a said sport climb was put in ground up, that said sport climb is really a "traditional" or trad climb. If a said sport climb was put in on rappel that said "sport" climb is in-fact a "sport" climb. Whether or not the FA decided to put the bolts 30' or 3' apart is beyond the point. Whether the climb is considered safe or a runout death trap is beyond the point. The style in which the climb was created determines its standing as either a sport or traditional climb. I personally think this is very important, and not to be misunderstood.

Ground up bolt on lead = Trad

Rappel bolted = Sport

Ha.... its not that hard to tell sport from trad (god i hate that term) when you look at it.

Its sort of like Porn I guess, easy to tell when you look at it, but very difficult to write a description.

"There are only 3 real sports: bull-fighting, car racing and mountain climbing. All the others are mere games." Ernest Hemingway

"Sport Climbing is Neither"

"Just a reminder — a guidebook is no substitute for skill, experience, judgment and lots of tension." - Charlie Fowler

It depends on the context. For MP entries "sport" simply means all bolt protected so people will know whether to bring gear. It is not the same use of the term as when speaking of the style. The danger factor should be made clear by the protection rating. Run out bolted slab with no gear placements is PG, R or X rated sport in MP context.

M Sprague wrote:It depends on the context. For MP entries "sport" simply means all bolt protected so people will know whether to bring gear. It is not the same use of the term as when speaking of the style. The danger factor should be made clear by the protection rating. Run out bolted slab with no gear placements is PG, R or X rated sport in MP context.

Seems like something that should be fixed during the MP software rewrite. This is the origin of a lot of the mistaken ideas expressed by newer climbers.

John Wilder wrote: If the climb can be safely led on bolts alone where any given fall above the first bolt (assuming a good belay and proper rope awareness) will not result in injury or death, it's a sport route. Everything else is trad.

Excellent definition!

I also like Jim Bridwell's take on sport climbing:

"It's fun. Sport climbing is like sport fucking, a lot of fun and not much commitment."

And sometimes in the South, people will put up "trad" routes on preplaced gear. Fun to try to repeat those lines when that detail is left out. Especially when you can't actually protect cruxes unless you place gear on rappel and hang a long sling on it...

How would you recommend fixing it?

csproul wrote: That is correct. The rest are bolt-protected traditional climbs.

Hmmm well i guess we should just say don't ever expect sport routes in NC they are 95% traditional I guess.

Ted Pinson wrote:How would you recommend fixing it?

Don't use "sport" to mean exclusively bolt protected.
Allow "trad" routes to say: Gear: 5 bolts
Don't allow sport routes to have R or X gear ratings. Not so sure about PG though.

a "well protected" moderate slab sport multi here is around 15-20 feet between bolts ... the not so well protected ones basically has a bolt at the crux, thats it ... and no bolts on the easier pitches, you basically solo em

dont fall and it wont matter ...

thats all there is to it ...

;)