Is using a grigri for PAS safe?

The so-called AAC method has been around and in use for at least ten years. It is a good option if the climber is going to be lowered from the anchor.

Although the method does minimize exposure to various potential mistakes and so is optimal in that sense, it is worth remembering that accidents involving lowering from anchors are not occurring because the climber drops the rope or isn't connected to it. Nor are accidents happening during the transition from hanging from the anchor to rappelling. (Ok, I know of one such accident, in which a long sling rigged with a keeper band became unthreaded and dropped the climber. Nothing in any of the current procedures---except direct tie-in with the rope rather than relying on a tether---would have saved the climber from that tragedy.)

With lowering, the real problem is with faulty communication and with the lack of a stopper knot at the belayer's end. With rappelling, the real problem is with uneven ends or both ends even but not reaching, in both cases solved with end stopper knots. The technique recommended by the AAC is fine as far as it goes but doesn't address the most significant dangers.

As a PAS user whose recommendations about its utility are regularly criticized and mocked on internet forums, I have to say I wouldn't bother with one in a sport-climbing situation. A purcell prussik is not even as good as a PAS since its adjustment range is limited. Use quickdraws, and if they don't fit the situation by themselves, then tie into them with the rope using clove hitches---no other system comes close in terms of adjustability. Although load distribution isn't worth worrying about, you can quickly rig anything you want with the rope. The method recommended by the AAC still works in exactly the same way; you just have to untie not only the rope tie-in but the clove hitches after you've passed the bight through and clipped it to the harness.

As for whether to lower or rappel, that seems to me to be an individual decision, informed by local practices. Worn rings can be extremely dangerous so there are good arguments for not lowering. Personally, I prefer rappelling because it eliminates all the miscommunication issues, but individual circumstances can change that to the lowering option. No matter what the local conventions, rappelling is never wrong.

Thanks all for the wonderful words of advice, alternative options and the off topic debate on the side on what seems to be everyone's favourite pet hate.

Regardless, back to the original question, is the actually anything unsafe about using a Grigri in this fashion?

bentgate.com/petzl-connect-…

Will.S wrote:http://www.bentgate.com/petzl-connect-adjust-lanyard/

Looks ideal but I already have a grigri, what's wrong with using that?

Shane12345 wrote:Thanks all for the wonderful words of advice, alternative options and the off topic debate on the side on what seems to be everyone's favourite pet hate. Regardless, back to the original question, is the actually anything unsafe about using a Grigri in this fashion?

no, the only thing unsafe about your method would be human error.

If you're using a dynamic line your PAS is actually safer than most static lines most people use. I would almost say you could even use your set up as a directional tie in capable of holding a fall. You'd probably be stressing the protection you're attached to but yea, nice set up

Nothing is unsafe about it, just cumbersome. You will figure out what's best for you through trial and error. Grigri's tend to slip on less than vertical terrain but go out and give your idea a shot, report back to us with pictures.

Seems contrived to me when a PAS (or two if you want) can adjust to what you need.

Also why don't you use your grigri?

Looking at Petzl's technical information, they do not recommend using it in a case where you are depending entirely on the device to hold without your brake hand on the brake strand. I treat my GriGri as an ATC PLUS!, so I treat the locking feature as helpful, but not dependable. I would not do what you are proposing.

RGold wrote:
"With lowering, the real problem is with faulty communication and with the lack of a stopper knot at the belayer's end. With rappelling, the real problem is with uneven ends or both ends even but not reaching, in both cases solved with end stopper knots. The technique recommended by the AAC is fine as far as it goes but doesn't address the most significant dangers."

I'd argue that the AAC stance on lowering helps to mitigate the communication error--if you're always lowering (or if this is the "standard" method), you never have to worry about knowing whether your belayer is ready to lower you or expects you to rappel. This eliminates all manner of "I'm safe!" and "In direct!" commands that are meaningless; if you're lowering, the belayer does absolutely nothing in response to this information, further complicating the communication. These are the commands that prompt belayers to go off belay when they'll need to go back on belay soon for the lower anyway. This is all eliminated when the only commands used are "slack," "take," and "ready to lower."

The AAC seems to be fairly consistent in the messaging as well. The latest video on lead belaying specifically notes the use of a stopper knot for a lead belay when setting up the system. If you also use the AAC lowering method, this congruency eliminates possible communication and lowering errors. This point could be made more clearly, but it shows up in this video, around 2:00:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ky4DMg7…

Finally, I agree that rappelling eliminates the uncertainty and puts the responsibility squarely on the climber (which is a good place for it). However, there are some circumstances where lowering is the best solution, such as overhanging sport lines without fixed equipment.

Imagining myself in the AAC shoes, I think it makes sense to reach out to the broadest base of climbers, who are also the least likely to have a highly developed repertoire of climbing skills or knowledge. For novices at anything, we usually start with rules and prescription and introduce critical thinking skills later in the educational progression (for better or for worse, this is Bloom's Taxonomy). If you're reaching out to this group, it makes sense to offer only "one right way" until they have the background for more complex skills. Consequently, that way should be a generalizable solution, which in this case means lowering as it covers all of the special cases.

It doesn't hurt that lowering is also standard practice in the gym, where many of these same people are learning their initial skills and will hopefully have an easier time translating. In fact, I'd venture there's a strong chance that a big chunk of the AAC's target audience doesn't necessarily even know how to rappel.

Anytime you go hands free with a grigri you ought to tie an overhand stopper knot in the brake strand. I assume you would have a stopper knot in the end but even then, if it slipped when accidentally unloaded it would be a shock load on one of the bolts. I also think you are over thinking it. The wheel has worked well for a long time, why reinvent... with a heavier, more complicated wheel?

Wow some thing like 10 posts while I was thinking & tap taping away
So big thread drift but Im gonna leave

Guy Keesee wrote:""Situation is simple single pitch sports climbs. Just trying to get a more comfortable and safer stance while I set up for my rappel down."" You are over thinking this..... its quite simple. One sling to one bolt, one to the other.... pull up some cord, tie it off to you so you dont drop it, untie from your harness, thread the rope ... tie back into your harness, untie anti-drop knot.... yell take, pull up and feel the rope holding you .... unclip the shortest sling, feel the rope holding you... undo the last sling... say lower me... It should take less time than it took me to type this out.... don't be an idiot, rap only if the gear is meant to be rapped off of...like some of the stations at Cochise or if it is the "local custom" to rap.

What Guy said seems to be 1/2 of what needed to be said,

USE CLOVE HITCHES,& Locking 'bieners to add redundancy

rgold, how do you do it?, Always such direct, thorough replies to folks who need to learn
What & The way, we did back in the day ~ that a Munter & Clove hitches, Prussic's knots, as hitches
or in modern parlance, rope capture devices, was what many of us learned as safety and self sufficiency,
self, & second -saving the leader- rescue.

EDIT : That is . . .
PROFESSOR rgold for those who don't Know.( that is how, I think he does it)

I know that Rescue Technique is not mentioned, by the OP
or anyone else but It struck me, that clearly, Given the Fear it seems that retreating from a controlled bolted station, evokes from the OP , I wonder what "Shane1234' would/will do if the shjt hits the fan for real?

Understanding by trying the simplest methods makes one appreciate the convenience of fancy modern
gear.

Hip Belays, backing off using cord or webbing with slotted Knots, Chock stone, as protection and to bail from are lost arts.

take a look at the very real dangers that demand we, as participants, understand the nature of.
The strength, built in redundancy, and overkill of those is starting to be replaced by ever lighter gear &
gear that wears out fast 1 season of moderate use with 4-5 falls and some stuff seems, fully cooked.

Out doors , you are rarely going to find Perfect scenarios. one should be familiar with alternate solutions
That is one of the Most Important Redundancies to have at one's disposal.

Ok......for us it's relatively common to have to one anchor over a foot higher than the other so just using 2 slings/draws doesn't work. And to complicate it, the little micro ledge you're trying to balance one foot on isn't always centered between the anchors either.

Hence an adjustable lanyard is definitely easier, faster and safer. Just clip grigri (or whatever) to anchor, pull to adjust and done. No messing about with munters or clove hitches which btw I can literally tie with my eyes closed, one handed in less than a second. Not saying that to impress but to make the point an adjustable lanyard is still faster after you consider the mucking about involved with adjusting length.

The question is, is a grigri safe to use it in this fashion? Will S has offered an alternative adjustable lanyard so I am now chasing up availability and price here in Oz.

And Victor K has correctly pointed out brake hand should be always on the grigri which I knew but hadn't considered in this application so thx for that Victor. I'm thinking that given I have another tether to the other bolt this isn't too much of a concern but something that I should definitely be aware of. And yes there is a stopper knot on the end though any shockload would be a big concern.

Parker, I don't normally use my grigri simply cause I find belaying (and rappelling) with my ATC guide much smoother. I will however use it when belaying the kids just for that extra safety precaution.

John I have practiced cleaning a fair bit as I have a woodie at home. However the cleaning bit isn't the issue, its the initial anchoring on very oddly placed bolts while balancing on dubious ledges that concerns me.

Michael, thx for the concern about if the sh!t hits the fan. While I have done industrial rope rescue, it was a while ago. However I'd still hazard a guess I'd be much more competent at self rescue than most other beginners out there. And my cautiousness stems from 15 years in mining. While you have utter faith in those bolts, I have 15 years telling me otherwise. I have no idea of the installation date, the installer's qualifications, what procedure/equipment/materials were used and if they meet any Australian/international standards, what's its maintenance and inspections schedules are or their results. The average Joe will be happily ignorant of all those details but for me, it will take some time to be comfortable with not knowing any of it. All I can do is look at it and maybe give it a quick tug. So for now, I will be extra cautious, ask lots of questions, and couldn't give a sh!t if I look stupid asking them.

Derek DeBruin wrote:I'd argue that the AAC stance on lowering helps to mitigate the communication error--if you're always lowering (or if this is the "standard" method), you never have to worry about knowing whether your belayer is ready to lower you or expects you to rappel. This eliminates all manner of "I'm safe!" and "In direct!" commands that are meaningless; if you're lowering, the belayer does absolutely nothing in response to this information, further complicating the communication. These are the commands that prompt belayers to go off belay when they'll need to go back on belay soon for the lower anyway. This is all eliminated when the only commands used are "slack," "take," and "ready to lower."

If you rappel everything is on the climber and there is no need to communicate at all. You can keep your lead on belay until you see a 2nd end of the rope hit the ground at which point you can assume they are not tied into the end because you have both ends on the ground.

If you want to be lowered you can still keep them on belay while they feed rope through and retie in. However they still have to wait for you before they can be lowered and that probably requires some communication to know that they are done with getting the rope through the anchor. Still either way not really much in the way of failure here unless for some reason they untie without a backup to keep the rope from dropping and you pull slack out and leave them up there without a rope.

As for going in direct it doesn't matter at all to balance whatever 2 methods you use to tie into both the anchors. You can use to long slings and even if the anchor causes one to be slack unless your anchors are that extremely unbalance your unlikely to take enough of a fall to break anything. I feel like people are treating going in direct like you are belaying on a multipitch where a serious fall could take place and you want to balance the force on the anchor.

Grigri unless weighted (even sometimes a little unweighted) will slip so just be aware of this. I have rope soloed with them and I always make sure to tie backup knots because you can't 100% be sure it will catch a fall if you don't have it under tension. I am assuming you are clipping draws on the anchor and feeding the rope through it than trying to attach the grigri in place of being tied into the rope and than pulling slack down to make it longer. Next passing the extra slack through the anchor and than tying back in... honestly this isn't safe you are forced to have slack on the grigri which creates a chance for it to slip and you to fall off the end.

Just either buy some kinda PAS or make your own it is alot simpler and for sport climbing much faster to just clip a biner into the anchor than deal with all the other crap that you would have to do.

I don't get it. You don't trust the bolt to hang on but you're willing to rap or lower off them.

Use a sling and your Purcell prussic and get it done while hanging on the bolts. Your making a simple matter way to complicated.

so, a section of rope with a figure 8 on each end one attached to device carabiner and one attached to anchor carabiner?

Gah. Anchor should be with two draws hung yeah? Take a draw you cleaned with clip to belay loop. Clip other end into both draw biners. No need for any fancy gear or carrying a grigri up a sports climb for gods sake. Clean lower done.

Shane1234,

A gri gri really adds no benefit here, and it wasn't engineered for this use, so you're likely to get more benefit from learning to use the proper tools for the job. This problem of uneven anchor pieces and small ledges and so on was solved a long, long time ago, well before I ever started climbing. These things are far from unique to your local crags.

Belaying a second? Go in direct with PAS or slings. Use knots to adjust sling length. Better yet, learn to build your anchor from a rope. rgold and bearbreeder have posted great discussion/description/pictures of this for years.

Cleaning on rappel? Go in direct with PAS or slings. Use knots to adjust sling length if needed.

Cleaning on lower? Go in direct with PAS or slings. Use knots to adjust sling length if needed.

I'll admit I'm not comfortable resting on those bolts at that angle and still like to stand on the ledge. That may be my root problem.

My theory is when hanging underneath the pull is at 90 degrees to the bolt so it's next to impossible for the bolt to slip out. However at anchor the angle of the pull is getting a lot closer to directly inline with the bolt so theoretically a lot easier to come out. So I'm relying on glue to hold it in. While you guys are obviously comfortable with that, I'm still getting there.

Regardless, if that is what everyone else does then there must be some merit to it and I'll endeavour to become more proficient at it.

Having said that, my line of work involves always challenging the status quo, thinking outside the box bla bla so I'm also going to give the grigri a go too.

Just because it isn't done that way doesn't means it's not a valid idea. The only safety concern raised is the brake hand which is a fair point but not overly critical. Even if it does slip, the worst is I'll swing slightly towards the other tether as it takes more of my weight.

Shane1234 wrote:I'll admit I'm not comfortable resting on those bolts at that angle and still like to stand on the ledge. That may be my root problem. My theory is when hanging underneath the pull is at 90 degrees to the bolt so it's next to impossible for the bolt to slip out. However at anchor the angle of the pull is getting a lot closer to directly inline with the bolt so theoretically a lot easier to come out. So I'm relying on glue to hold it in. While you guys are obviously comfortable with that, I'm still getting there.

On some bolts or pieces of protection that is a valid concern. But you need to assess the situation. Any decent bolt should not be of concern. Glue should not be of concern. That stuff holds buildings down, your tiny weight won't be an issue.

On the other hand if it is one of the famous/infamous carrot bolts then your concern might be warranted. ;-)

jive-assanchors.com/2014/06…

patto wrote: ... On the other hand if it is one of the famous/infamous carrot bolts then your concern might be warranted. ;-) jive-assanchors.com/2014/06…

There are some dodgy carrots still around but most of the popular routes have been rebolted. I'm reasonably sure all the new ones are solid so it's more just a matter of me trusting them.

And yes, I do have a chalk bag full of those exact same bolt plate hangers :)