Top Rope Anchor Safety and Locking Biners

A friend uses three oval non lockers for a TR master point. i use two lockers.

A single locker is definitely strong enough and if it were to remain locked with no possibility of being loaded across the gate would be entirely adequate. However life isnt perfect and the cyclic loading and unloading of a slingshot type toprope set up, the gate can come undone, the carabiner can become loaded across the gate or any number of things can happen.

My personal rule of thumb is if the masterpoint is unattended, I will use either 2 lockers or 1 locker and 1 non locker opposite and opposed.

A couple of quick thoughts.
The AMGA suggests using a locker and a back-up. The back up can be locking or non.
2 non lockers is generally considered to equal a locker so if you use only two that is equivalent to a single locker to hold the rope.

Instead of stating what we all use lets think about it this way.

The primary connection for the rope to the anchor should be a locker.
And because a TR master point connection is generally unmonitored that locker should probably have a back-up.

A locker and a back-up.

FrankPS wrote: Redundancy is good

Agreed.

Generally a single locker will be fine, but weird shit can happen. Why tempt that kind of fate?

cdec wrote:A couple of quick thoughts. The AMGA suggests using a locker and a back-up. The back up can be locking or non. 2 non lockers is generally considered to equal a locker so if you use only two that is equivalent to a single locker to hold the rope. Instead of stating what we all use lets think about it this way. The primary connection for the rope to the anchor should be a locker. And because a TR master point connection is generally unmonitored that locker should probably have a back-up. A locker and a back-up.

I view two non-lockers as even better than a single locker. A single locker can come unlocked or not-locked in the first place. Now on a single carabiner, if the gate becomes opened it could be catastrophic. WIth two non-lockers, O&O, it would be virtually impossible for the rope to come out of both gates.

Two non lockers (or any combination of locker/non-locker) would be fine with me. A single locker would not.

I asked a rhetorical question, which of course no one tried to answer. There is absolutely no reason not to use two lockers if that makes you feel comfortable.

There are many situations in which redundancy-nuts overdo things, slowing down the climbing process, sometimes dangerously, while loading up with extraneous gear. Getting stuck behind a party like this is a nightmare.

But top-rope anchors are not an occasion for some misguided light-is-right minimalism. There are no time pressures and no penalties for lugging a bit of extra gear. The anchor itself typically cannot be monitored. Failure would be catastrophic; there is no backup. You wanna put two lockers on that thing, either as the person setting up the anchors or as someone who has to use them, don't let anyone talk you out of it!

Although I rarely toprope, I sometimes set up top-rope anchors at the end of short single-pitch leads so that belaying can happen comfortably on the ground. I always use two lockers, and I'm leading to get up to the anchor, so have to labor under their crushing weight.

Not mentioned so far is a reason to use three carabiners in some situations: If the anchor point is on a slab, then with one or even two carabiners the rope can bind, getting pinched between the anchor carabiners and the rock. Three carabiners usually solve this problem, as together they orient with their planes perpendicular to the slab surface, allowing the rope to run freely.

rgold wrote:Not mentioned so far is a reason to use three carabiners in some situations: If the anchor point is on a slab, then with one or even two carabiners the rope can bind, getting pinched between the anchor carabiners and the rock. Three carabiners usually solve this problem, as together they orient with their planes perpendicular to the slab surface, allowing the rope to run freely.

Interesting. Never tried this.
Thanks for the info.

For top-roping a single locking 'biner will be fine from a load bearing point of view. I usually use 2 'biners because it's easier on the rope having a larger bend radius, and also less wear on the 'biners. I actually use three opposed non-locking ovals - for reasons stated previously.

climbing friend,

you are going to do the dying

rgold wrote:I think a more interesting question is why wouldn't you use two lockers?

climbing friend,

to prove you are the hardman

rgold wrote:I asked a rhetorical question, which of course no one tried to answer. There is absolutely no reason not to use two lockers if that makes you feel comfortable. There are many situations in which redundancy-nuts overdo things, slowing down the climbing process, sometimes dangerously, while loading up with extraneous gear. Getting stuck behind a party like this is a nightmare. But top-rope anchors are not an occasion for some misguided light-is-right minimalism. There are no time pressures and no penalties for lugging a bit of extra gear. The anchor itself typically cannot be monitored. Failure would be catastrophic; there is no backup. You wanna put two lockers on that thing, either as the person setting up the anchors or as someone who has to use them, don't let anyone talk you out of it! Although I rarely toprope, I sometimes set up top-rope anchors at the end of short single-pitch leads so that belaying can happen comfortably on the ground. I always use two lockers, and I'm leading to get up to the anchor, so have to labor under their crushing weight. Not mentioned so far is a reason to use three carabiners in some situations: If the anchor point is on a slab, then with one or even two carabiners the rope can bind, getting pinched between the anchor carabiners and the rock. Three carabiners usually solve this problem, as together they orient with their planes perpendicular to the slab surface, allowing the rope to run freely.

@RGold, I just want to take a moment to publicly marvel at the persistent optimism and hope in humanity you represent to me on climbing forums. Despite endless repetition of the same questions, the same misinformation, the same myths, the same irrationality, you continually raise the signal-to-noise ratio with pretty much every post. I'm not sure how you don't find this exhausting, but it brightens my day that you don't.

simple fact ... one day, perhaps many days, youll lead up a pitch and not have any lockers (usually when yr hung over and trying to impress some hawtayz) ..

youll get to the top and realize you have almost no gear left (weve all done that especially cragging at our limits)

so youll build an anchor with what you have ... hopefully you can scrounge up 2 non lockers

there reality in climbing is that all this forum yapping and "what you should do" goes out the window in the real world

TR anchor arguments on MP ...

;)

Sure, you can't build anchors with gear you don't have. My impression is that the discussion was more about the kind of anchors people build after walking to the top.

That said, a toprope anchor for belaying on a climb you just lead is strictly a convenience feature. If you don't have the gear to make your seconds 100% safe (as you see it) with a top-rope belay, then just give the first one an upper belay and once they're up you'll have whatever you need.

This is the bottom line on the original question for me:

csproul wrote: One locking biner is not sufficient IMO. The biner is out of sight and unattended. If it comes unlocked, or you forget to lock it, you are TRing on a single unlocked biner.

These are modes of failure that are all too familiar.

In truth, I'm an opposite-and-opposed (non-lockers) guy myself - it is the gear I always have on hand.

bearbreeder wrote: simple fact ... one day, perhaps many days, youll lead up a pitch and not have any lockers (usually when yr hung over and trying to impress some hawtayz) ..

Or are just getting old and forgetful.