Communication when you cannot hear your partner?

Sometimes I carry a set of tiny walkie talkies on multi-pitch trad routes for communication in case one of us ends up around a corner or out of sight in someway. However, these are items that could possibly be left behind with the use of a pre-established communication system. What system, words, movement, rope tugs, etc does everyone use to communicate with your partner when voices cannot be heard? Thanks in advance.

There have been numerous threads on this. Any discussion of walkie-talkies involves people talking about rope tugs. To wit:

mountainproject.com/v/walki…

mountainproject.com/v/two-w…

mountainproject.com/v/walki…

Which "estuary" are you from? Morro Bay?

In times of need. A whistle works great. Saved me and partners alot of unneeded stress.There is a built in wistle on my helmet. Or bring one, Weight is of no concern.

A whistle. That's a good idea!!

Whistles suck and no one wants to hear your frigging whistling all day. People have been climbing out-of-sight forever and have somehow managed to do it safely without whistles, walkie-talkies and cell phones - figure it out.

From another thread relative to belaying an out-of-sight leader...

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As far as a leader being out-of-sight, here's what I recommend. When you are belaying climbers you can see (as in most all of the time, sport or trad), keep just a hair's breath of tension on the rope with fingers of the hand on the leader side of the belay device (by 'hair's breath' I mean they shouldn't really be able to tell you're even doing it) - i.e. just enough tension so you can always feel/detect the leader's movements through the rope.

Are they moving? Resting? Stepping back down? Downclimbing? Or stopping to clip or place gear? Every climber has patterns and rhythms of behavior on lead you can learn via the rope if you climb with them enough. And eventually you can tell what most leaders are doing via the rope unless they are being erratic either by nature, circumstance or due to some peculiar aspect of the climb. But really being much more cognizant of leaders movements via the rope while you can see them will allow you to be far less anxious when they are out of sight. Do it long enough and you'll get to where you generally have a pretty good bead on a leader's state of mind just by what you feel through the rope as they climb. My two cents anyway...

Funny article about this subject:

kellycordes.com/2012/09/02/…

To me it's crazy how complicated people make it. Have a set plan before you leave the ground; one that doesn't require morse code on the rope or needless noisiness. Things happen, and any system that absolutely relies on noises or rope movement could lead to big trouble. The system outlined below works because my partner and I trust each other with a set system.

1) If I (as the belayer) can't hear the simple one-time shout of my leader, say when they get to the top, I keep them on belay until we're at the end of the rope. Sometimes it's obvious they're pulling slack and I'm ready to give it out very quickly, but they don't go off-- they could be linking two pitches and on easy terrain. It's troublesome when people tell me they don't want to have to feed through the WHOLE rope: that's the name of the game in this sport.

2) The leader builds a belay immediately when done with a pitch, anchors to it, shouts an "off-belay" like phrase (which the bottom belayer may or may not hear), and only pulls rope when they are ready to put it into a guide mode, or similar-on-belay setup. Then they just keep belaying in slack, and when its taught--either because of rope drag or because you've reached the bottom belayer, the rope gets put into the belay device. If there's any ambiguity, belay the entire length of rope rather than quickly pulling up slack. If the bottom belayer did not hear the "off belay" command, they will simply feed out slack until the rope is taught, wait a healthy 20 seconds (the time it takes for the leader or top belayer to put them on, knowing that they only started pulling rope when they were ready to belay), and then climb.

3) All of this is an open dialogue prior to and during the climb. Is a pitch a full 60m? Then maybe we'll alter our plan. Do we know it's just 30 m to a tree around the corner? OK everyone keeps that in mind. Worst case, the leader misjudges how far they have climbed, and the whole rope is out. In that case, we're simul-climbing anyway, so I (the bottom belayer) wait 20-30 seconds, take off the belay (I'm always tied to one end of the rope), and proceed as if its a simul-climb until (a) its clear the leader reached their real anchor or (b) we're in visual or hearing range.

No need to play chance to wind gusts giving fake rope tugs or shout endlessly. Simply always keep someone on belay, and don't worry about shortcuting the system

two thoughts: 1)when the leader has set up a belay and is ready for the 2nd to climb, s/he gives three strong tugs on the rope---the 2nd should start climbing and the rope should be retrieved by the leader. Or 2) as in canada, the leader yells "Secure" meaning he's on belay and the 2nd can climb and the rope is retrieved by the belayer. In either case, if slack develops, that means the 2nd misunderstood the indications that s/he should climb....stop and wait for further tugs or calls.

I have had multiple positive experiences with rope-morse.
Two solid tugs with a two second pause from the leader = my anchor is built and I am ready to pull in rope.
Three solid tugs from the follower = I'm climbing
One really hard tug and then total stillness from the leader = cut the rope,
I mean in the long run it's just a matter of being on the same page as your partner.

Ancent wrote:Things happen, and any system that absolutely relies on noises or rope movement could lead to big trouble.

Except that hasn't been my experience over decades of climbing; the reverse has been true and from years of paying attention to leader movements via the rope I generally always know what and how an out of sight leader is doing.

My climbing partner is deaf, so I've a bit of experience with this. However, we've only just started trad, so most of my 3xperience is with top-eoping.

What it comes down to is what works fo= you (as pointed out by Benj84).

We tried different schema recommended by others, but eventually came up with our own. I suspect others might not like ours either. Whatever you use, commanda should be simple and easy to distinguish.

I live in New Mexico where the wind blows and blows and then blows some more. We use "Windy day rules" when communication is difficult. If someone feels that communication is going to be difficult they say "Windy day rules apply" and from then on the leader puts the follower on belay immediately after creating the anchor before pulling up the extra rope. So when rope becomes tight the follower is either on belay or the pair are simul-climbing if the leader has not gotten to a belay when the rope runs out.

It is a mild pain in the ass to pull all the rope through the belay device but the confort of knowing that you are on belay while seconding it worthwhile. It puts an end to the endless off-belay/on-belay yelling.

Also, no extra gear is required.

Yesterday was another "Windy day rules" day. :) good fun!

To keep things simple, I tend to use three slow, rhythmic, full arms length pulls to be off belay. Then pull the rope up until its tight. Then let ~2m of slack back down, put the belay on, and then take in the slack nice and snug.

As the belayer three slow tugs is distinct and pretty unlikely to happen on accident. The loop coming back down and then the rope going tight and staying that way is a clear "on belay". IMO trying to discern different numbers of tugs for slack/uprope doesn't really work. By the time you can't hear your partner, the chances of those signals being clear are slim.

Short tugs mean slack, lots of short tugs means slack and it's hard, one long tug means I've fallen.

Healyje makes a nice point about 'getting a feel' for the rope as your partner climbs. Most climbing situations become pretty obvious when you understand the pattern of rope movement in a climb.

Rope tugs, of course, are the time-honored way to communicate when sight and sound are not available. Just keep it simple and no more than two to three tugs.

Radios and cell phones are not always reliable because in high wind situations they are difficult to hear and handle. Texting may be better if service is available.

A good point which has not been mentioned yet is to make an effort to prevent the out of sight/sound situation altogether if at all possible. Linking pitches is not always a great idea. Breaking up long pitches into two shorter pitches for the sake of good communication and other considerations is generally wise climbing. Long pitches and linking pitches can be fun and prefered in many situations, but if it produces bad communication, bad rope drag, causes the leader to run out of gear, and makes the belayer go cold and stiff from waiting for more than 25 minutes, then such long leads are far from ideal. Keeping the pitches shorter and more manageable is sometimes the smart way to go.

Healyje wrote:Whistles suck and no one wants to hear your frigging whistling all day. People have been climbing out-of-sight forever and have somehow managed to do it safely without whistles, walkie-talkies and cell phones - figure it out. From another thread relative to belaying an out-of-sight leader... ------------------------------------------------------ As far as a leader being out-of-sight, here's what I recommend. When you are belaying climbers you can see (as in most all of the time, sport or trad), keep just a hair's breath of tension on the rope with fingers of the hand on the leader side of the belay device (by 'hair's breath' I mean they shouldn't really be able to tell you're even doing it) - i.e. just enough tension so you can always feel/detect the leader's movements through the rope. Are they moving? Resting? Stepping back down? Downclimbing? Or stopping to clip or place gear? Every climber has patterns and rhythms of behavior on lead you can learn via the rope if you climb with them enough. And eventually you can tell what most leaders are doing via the rope unless they are being erratic either by nature, circumstance or due to some peculiar aspect of the climb. But really being much more cognizant of leaders movements via the rope while you can see them will allow you to be far less anxious when they are out of sight. Do it long enough and you'll get to where you generally have a pretty good bead on a leader's state of mind just by what you feel through the rope as they climb. My two cents anyway...

This is the solution. Sometimes a VERY simple system of tugs can help clear up confusion, but one should really learn the systems, and go by feel. Sometimes this is the only option!!

Ancent wrote:To me it's crazy how complicated people make it. Have a set plan before you leave the ground; one that doesn't require morse code on the rope or needless noisiness. Things happen, and any system that absolutely relies on noises or rope movement could lead to big trouble.

THIS. SO MUCH OF THIS.

Mind you for most climbs I don't set a "plan". But most climbs aren't going to have communication issues. But I've certainly done when needed such as on long pitched alpine style climbs.

Eg. My plan for morderate ground: I'm just going to climb buddy. If I run out of rope and I'm not at a belay I'll just climb until I get to one. If you run out of rope, take me off belay and start climbing...

One more thing. If you are leading and communication isn't clear. Don't take up the rope until you are ready to put the person straight onto belay.

Here's a simple and straightforward method that works for me and my partners with a little "training":

1) Leader climbs and makes sure to NOT run quickly on easy terrain (so this method won't work on alpine terrain where speed is needed).

2) Once the leader has built and tied into an anchor he hauls (and I mean HAULS) up the rope real quickly. After at least ten feet of hauling, the second now realizes the rope goes up a lot quicker than when the leader is leading, so this means "OFF BELAY" (from the leader) with no need to yell. The follower holds the rope and dismounts the belay device at the same time as the leader keeps a little tension in the rope. Once the second releases the rope and the rope is running again, the leader knows the belay is off.

3) Once the rope gets taught to the follower, the leader now realizes this means "THAT'S ME" (from the second) with no need to yell.

4) The leader puts the follower on belay and tightens up the rope a second time, which means "ON BELAY" (from the leader), with no need for yelling. One option here is that the second stops the rope short a foot or two before the rope gets tight the first time and then releases this after a few seconds. Once these two feet of slack is tightened, the belay is on. If the second is still hesitating, step up a foot and if the rope goes up, you're ON.

I prefer to run this sequence at all times instead of using this only when you can't hear each other. It gives continued "training" and knowing what's going on instead of changing methods and starting to hesitate when you really need it. And if we can see each other, hand signals are the best.

The continuous on belay, +1. Thanks for the idea there, so much better than rope morse code!

Healyje wrote: Except that hasn't been my experience over decades of climbing; the reverse has been true and from years of paying attention to leader movements via the rope I generally always know what and how an out of sight leader is doing.

I do the same, but are you saying that you've never had an experience where rope drag around an unexpected feature disrupted this "feeling?" It happens, and the "rope-connection" that you speak of can go from a definitive I-feel-everything to grueling/dragging rope where it is impossible to tell if the leader is just bearing through with rope drag (still climbing) or gave up (built a belay and is belaying in slack).

Medic741 wrote:The continuous on belay, +1. Thanks for the idea there, so much better than rope morse code!

If it's a long climb, you'll never get anywhere quickly or tire yourself out if you're always on belay, especially at the top belay. The key is to have a fluid set of rules known to all. For example, the leader builds the top anchor, sets it up so it is ready to belay the second, pulls slack (not on belay), and the instant the rope gets taught puts it into the belay (happens within five seconds because the leader had this part of the anchor ready to go before pulling slack). The follower knows that once the rope is taught, there's a lag for the leader to put in the belay, and then they're good to go.

As another question, regardless of communication methods: What happens if the rope stops moving entirely, and you (the bottom belayer) find out the rope is stuck in a notch halfway up (you know this either because you see it, or knew that this was possible are simply inferring). The leader may either have built a belay or is also trying to free the stuck rope and still leading, but you have no way of knowing. What do you do? Hope that there's a couple pieces of pro above this constriction and start climbing with a prusik to take in slack, hoping that if you fall the constriction, your leader's anchor, or another piece of pro will catch you? Do something more complicated to make sure there is always an anchor for the team?

Instead of a Prussik I'd throw your guide plate into guide mode off your belay loop and head up and pray the rope doesn't cut if you fall...

The person in the best position to do anything about that is usually the leader. Keep him / her on belay, sit tight for a while, and hopefully you can be glad you chose a partner who knows how to deal with it.

... patience.