Tope Rope Anchor check

Those that are saying your system is not redundant don't understand your setup. It is redundant as is once you add another biner to the rope side.

It is fine as if you move the limiter knots closer and add a biner for the rope, preferably a locker. Lockers all around, while doing no harm may not be necessary. It depends if you think the gates could rub against the rock and be pushed open. Judgement call.

Using nylon would be a bit better.

Your rig is good for about 10kN or 2250 lbs. which is adequate for TR.

Your rig is very simple. That is very good.

Greg D wrote:Those that are saying your system is not redundant don't understand your setup. It is redundant as is once you add another biner to the rope side.

The non-redundancy is a limit knot can roll and fail if the sling breaks. Unlikely? yes, but possible.

Like I said before, everyone has their own level of risk, and what they are ok with. But IMO there's no reason not to have as fool proof a top rope as possible, so why not?

If you are going to use two slings, why not just use them like you would quickdraws? If the bolts don't have chains and aren't even, simply tie one overhand in one of the slings to make them at the same level. This meets all the qualifiers for SERENE. As for the OP, that is fine anchor, you can use lockers (two at the masterpoint) for extra security. My preference would be to simply tie a preequalized anchor, you really don't need a completely load sharing anchor on bolts, especially if the route doesn't wander back and forth much. Nylon is preferable to dyneema when tieing knots, expect about a 50% strength reduction in dyneema with knots.

^^^. Umm. What rolls the knot. A failed bolt?

Hone your skills where bolts are easily accessible.....keep in mind that besides the TR anchor you should know about securing yourself to the bolts before building the actual anchor and how to do rappels. It's not the time to learn when you're at the top of a 30m cliff...

In fact, the most efficient and secure way to learn it in your situation is to hire a guide who will teach you everything you know to setup topropes anywhere. It's an excellent investment!

DrRockso wrote:If you are going to use two slings, why not just use them like you would quickdraws? If the bolts don't have chains and aren't even, simply tie one overhand in one of the slings to make them at the same level. This meets all the qualifiers for SERENE.

Because then I have to take time tying and adjusting a knot. My set up allows me to just set the anchor and go.

Counter question: What's the benefit of doing it your way vs my way? I'm not saying your way is wrong, btw, just different.

Greg D wrote:^^^. Umm. What rolls the knot. A failed bolt?

A chopped sling (between bolt and limit knot) causes the knot to be loaded. An overhand can roll and fail in this manner, especially if it's chopped in such a way that results in a very small, or no tail.

Also, if the sling is chopped ON the knot it can easily fail.

Yeah, it's unlikely, but it still can happen. Again, why NOT have better redundancy?

Your set up is secure! I think you already are aware of the short comings.

This will make it better: Move the load limiting knots closer to the master point (the knots really shouldn't be farther apart than 6 inches or so, as the purposed of this just to allow them to self equalize).

Add another locker to the "master point". With two lockers you do not need the sliding X flipped strand, just clip one biner to one strand and one to the other between the load limiters.

If this is unclear, I can post a photo.

You are also correct in thinking that a nylon sling will be stronger than a dyneema/ spectra runner in this case. You do not need two slings as some have suggested. Your current set up is redundant with the load limiting knots, and will hold even if one anchor point fails.

If you are top roping on this, you will have a safer set up than 95% of people at the sport crag!

Eric, beware of the noob mistakes of placing too much emphasis on equalization and ignoring extension. Of confusing "equalized" with "equalizing". Of making complicated macrame projects for anchors.

Check out this thread: mountainproject.com/v/knot-…

And, just for fun, Google "Banshee Belay"

wivanoff wrote:beware of the noob mistakes of placing too much emphasis on equalization and ignoring extension. Of confusing "equalized" with "equalizing". Of making complicated macrame projects for anchors.

FWIW my anchor has about 5" or 6" of extension, and that's if it's at it's limit.

In the 3rd Edition of Climbing Anchors the data shows minimal impact to the force on an anchor when a bolt blows between an "equalized" and an "equalizing" (extending) anchor when connected through the rope

This makes sense. Do you worry about the extension when you lead climb, and take a fall on a single bolt that may kill you if it blows?

FWIW, I'm all ears to hear true criticism, and either explain why I think it's ok, or reconsider. but backhanded comments like calling something "macrame" just let me know it not YOUR method, therefore it must be wrong.

Francis Kerdevez wrote:Hone your skills where bolts are easily accessible.....keep in mind that besides the TR anchor you should know about securing yourself to the bolts before building the actual anchor and how to do rappels. It's not the time to learn when you're at the top of a 30m cliff...

This comment is extremely important - thinking back to my first couple outdoor TR trips, I took way too many risks crawling to the lip of a sketchy cliff to clip into the anchor bolts with a personal anchor. Sometimes getting to the anchor bolts is more dangerous than the climbing and it's not that hard to set up a simple rappel off a nearby tree, so you should learn how to do that as well.

If the anchors are safely accessible from the top, you might need to think about extending them over the edge anyway using a cordalette, etc. If they're far back from the edge of the cliff, the rope might run over a sharp edge which is obviously bad.

Also be extremely careful working around anchors if you're clipped in with a static personal anchor system - personal anchors are not meant to catch a fall!

To the OP and your original question.

Based on your original photo I would say this set up is very dangerous and yer gonna die.

That lattice fence is not going to hold and your whole anchor is going to fail.

if you need validation on TR anchors from intrawebz forums then you need to find a real live experienced person to climb with

theres MANY things beyond just posting up a pic of an anchor in the fence that can affect the safety of even a TR outdoors climb

thats all there is to it

;)

bearbreeder wrote:can affect the safety of even a TR outdoors climb

Like yoga pants.

Thanks everyone for all the replies and even the comical ones. Again the orignial photo is nothing I would ever climb on. I know there are missing parts and equipment changes for sure. The area I will be top roping is nothing crazy. Most routes are between 22-25 feet with maybe one pushing 30. I just want to start the transition to crag from gym and figured it would a good place to get my feet wet. The bolts in the picture are easily reached for a trail above and they are placed on top of the cliff not on the face so the anchor will overhang the edge of the cliff.

I'm guessing those are the bolts at John Bryant? Save your time and drive to the Red.

Yes sir, that is Bryant. I'm planning hitting RRG this summer, figured Bryant would be a goos transition from gym to real rock and learn some of the basics before taking on RRG.

That looks like a great setting to practice a TR setup! I would definitely think about getting a 30 foot length of 7-8mm static cordalette (like this) to extend your anchor over the edge like the one in the second photo you posted. 1 inch tubular webbing can also do the same trick. Good luck, have fun, stay safe!

For TR anchors, since you want everything redundant, since they will be unsupervised.

You are on two bolts, so equalization, aka load distribution is irrelevant. Either bolt, if solid, will hold easily much more than 100% of the force. You are on two, in case one bolt is bad.

So:

1. Use a nylon sling, rather than dyneema. They are cheaper. They don't lose nearly as much strength when knotted. They are easier to untie afterwards. Sure, they're a bit heavier and bulkier -- but this is a TR anchor, not a hard red-point attempt.

2. Use lockers. I recommend 4 locking biners. Your anchor is unsupervised, lockers stop bad things happening, even if they are low odds. Use two opposite and opposed at the rope attachment point. (This means that the gates open in opposite directions, even if you spin one of them on its long axis.) Sure, they're a bit heavier and bulkier than wire-gates... but see above.

3. Do a simple master-point anchor. That is, take your sling and clip one end to each bolt. Bring the center of both strands together and downwards and tie a simple over-hand knot in it. (Or, figure-8 if you prefer, but that doesn't gain you anything, and uses up more sling length which may be a pain. Of course this may be helpful if you want to more your master-point up a bit.) Getting the two arms the same length is nice, but really not much of an issue if they're off. The rope will have enough spring for the very minor bit of extension mis-lengthed arms will give. This is simple, easy, fully redundant everywhere, and only uses one sling.

4. Make sure you lock all the lockers. Preferentially with the gates away from the rock, and the gates tightening downwards if they are screw-gate.

Since the arm lengths don't really matter much, you can even pre-tie your power-point, and pre-clip all 4 biners in place, making this really fast to setup.

If you need to extend the anchor (say to reduce rope drag, or prevent the rope from running over an edge), use a longer sling. Or use two slings, one for each arm, then tie them together into the master-point. This system is not just simple, it is simple to extend or modify.

Better late than never. Is this now more appropriate?

Looks good. The only non redundant item is the master point locker (which most people consider acceptable). I prefer to double up in case someone forgets to screw the gates shut.