Trad gear needed on bolted routes

if you are 2/3rds the way up and only one piece is needed, sounds like you are safe not using it. boom back to a full sport route, but with a bit of a run out on easy ground. easy because there is a crack!

Tim Lutz wrote:Carrying a rack for one placement, while the rest of the route is bolted, to satisfy the 'memorable' ego of FA, is silly IMO.

Usually this has nothing to do with the ego of the FA. It is done in attempt to save the rock from scaring as much as possible while still providing the level of safety deemed appropriate by the FA and local climbing community

eli poss wrote: Usually this has nothing to do with the ego of the FA. It is done in attempt to save the rock from scaring as much as possible while still providing the level of safety deemed appropriate by the FA and local climbing community

Yep.
In fact it is the ethic at City of Rocks, ID. There are many sport routes where you'll be facing either a huge R/X run-out or ledge fall if you don't have the correct trad gear with you.

Skaha has a number of sport routes where the correct size cam or two vastly calms things down between bolts. Eg: a 1.5 cam on Plumb Line cuts a potential 25'er down to about 10' max. somewhere around the 8th or 9th bolt.

Tim Lutz wrote: I'm happy to place gear on an all-trad route, and 'challenge myself' as necessary. The FA did nothing to alter the route other than anchors. The challenge is nature, not a contrivance from the FA and whatever their particular 'ethics' are. Carrying a rack for one placement, while the rest of the route is bolted, to satisfy the 'memorable' ego of FA, is silly IMO.

If you had done any multi pitch trad routes like you describe as above you will find that the pieces needed are most often mentioned in the description. Dumb folk would carry a full rack!!!.. You expose your lack of knowledge.

Tim Lutz wrote: I don't do much multi-pitch mainly because there isn't much where I live. I see the point of mixed pitches on long routes, just not so much in single pitch in primarily sport areas, like the OP's question.

Thats plain to see .

Tim Lutz wrote: Carrying a rack for one placement, while the rest of the route is bolted, to satisfy the 'memorable' ego of FA, is silly IMO.

Who carries a rack for a single placement? Many guidebooks in my experience list the size of gear needed to supplement the bolts plus most people can eyeball a placement to where they'd bring 2 pieces at most for the said placement.

I think a lot of how routes are protected depends on the local ethics of the given crag, how the route was established, and the year that the route was put up.

Locally for me, in the Owens River Gorge there are a number of sport routes that were established ground-up in the 80's, with the occasional fixed pin or gear placement. As people were still figuring out the whole sport climbing thing, trad ethics were still very much in effect. A lot of these routes were quality lines, but saw little to no traffic since most climbers didn't want to lug a rack down for one or two pitches when there were over 500 established routes that could be climbed with draws alone. Recently, many of these routes have been retrobolted (generally with the blessing of the FA and sometimes even by the FA) and are seeing a lot more traffic as a result.

Meanwhile, across the highway, there has been a renaissance of new mixed-gear routes put up in Pine Creek Canyon in the past ten years. The goal there was not to create sport climbs that you need gear for, but to put up gear-protected routes without death-defying runouts. The old, scary, runout trad lines have been generally left alone up there, but now there are also a number of popular lines that range from 50/50 - gear/bolts to all gear with one bolt to protect a runout section. Many of these routes have been developed top-down in an effort to create the best quality lines and to make sure that the bolts end up in the right places. My personal opinion is that if a route is going to be 75% or more bolts, you might as well make it a fully bolted sport climb, but it's up to the FA to make that call.

Tapawingo wrote: Who carries a rack for a single placement? Many guidebooks in my experience list the size of gear needed to supplement the bolts plus most people can eyeball a placement to where they'd bring 2 pieces at most for the said placement.

It's more a matter of bringing the rack to the crag, where different pieces may be needed for different climbs. It's not about bringing the full rack up a specific climb where you only need one piece.

So? Your point being.....?

I know there's at least one mixed climb in Muir Valley (RRG) that was bolted due to concerns of climbers running the crack out dangerously. Wish I could remember which it was.

Basically property owner at the time saw climbers running the crack out, requested it be bolted. It was and no one really cared. Maybe different because the property owner requested?

eli poss wrote: Usually this has nothing to do with the ego of the FA. It is done in attempt to save the rock from scaring as much as possible while still providing the level of safety deemed appropriate by the FA and local climbing community

Funny typo - I'd generally think more bolts makes the rock less scary.

If you are hand drilling it makes sense to spare the effort

Col. Mustard answered this well on the first page. Thanks Col. M.

David A wrote:

Aside from this bolt being unnecessary, whats holding the hanger on? Did someone torque the head of the bolt and leave it there like that?

Tim Lutz wrote: I don't read MP cheater placement beta, I'm so trad and awesome I carry the whole rack, like a Stonemaster. Reading MP gear beta makes it a sport climb.

I don't recall ever saying anything about MP gear placement beta. Like I said, many guidebooks give this information and if not eyeballing it is pretty easy.

CTB wrote: Aside from this bolt being unnecessary, whats holding the hanger on? Did someone torque the head of the bolt and leave it there like that?

Here's a screen snip from the original photo at full size. Yes, it sure looks odd.

^^^Petzl longlife.

Brian in SLC wrote:^^^Petzl longlife.

Thanks! I'm only familiar with the ones that either have a nut on a threaded rod or those that have a hex head.

Actually...looking a bit closer, might be a clone of a Longlife...

something like this:

I picked up a few of these in a shop in Sisteron France. Similar design. Nail drive expansion bolt design. Kinda cool.