Training plan evaluation/help

I'm a weekend warrior in a few ways- I try to climb a lot, but I also am in the army reserve. I am trying to push into the 5.12s this year, but have a few forces working against me, or at least pulling me in a few directions. I have some goals set, and I think I've researched enough trying to get a plan going, and need a little outside help to help guide me.

So here we go:
Goals:
-Redpoint a 5.12 and push into being able to onsight 5.12. I had set the goal of sending a 5.12 by June, that may or may not be practical.
-subgoal: Boulder V4 comfortably and be semi-competent in V5. V4 isn't too far off if I can stay consistent.
-I have to maintain army fitness standards and would like to be strong in general. I'm looking at ''Strong, Swift, Durable's" strength standards to help tie army fitness into climbing. Basically have to be able to run 2 miles kinda quick, do push-ups and sit-ups. I feel like my core is fairly strong, but I still can't do sit-ups fast. I never train them specifically, so any insight into useful exercises that also improve my sit-up quantity (need to do ~50-60 in <2 minutes) would be helpful!
-Drop from 175 to 165lbs. I'm ok with having "extra muscle weight" because of army, "well-roundedness"
-maintain/increase cardio abilities- hoping to attempt some alpine climbing/14ers etc later this year.

Current ability:
Can send most all V3s at gym, and do ok at V4.
I am doing Squats, Deadlift, Bench Press, shooting for 3x/week
Can do 25x 3 ab roll outs from knees, trying to work in toes-to-bar, will do dragon flags and I'd like to be able to hold a Front Lever.
Pull-ups- max is around 7-8, try to do 5 or 6 reps for 3 sets.

I know the secret is to just climb more, but with life currently, I can typically only do about 1-1.5 hours 3x/week. I also only have access to a bouldering gym.
I can ARC at a V0 level with a few V2-V3 moves interspersed for 45 minutes, but I'm not sure how to incorporate this.

I feel confident with my technique, I'd say weaknesses are mostly limited by grip strength in horizontal moves (side pulls that pull me off the wall). I don't like overhanging stuff as much, but am already starting to try to climb our S-Wall and steeper routes more.

PLAN:
Boulder 3x week. Since I feel strong in my back, legs and core, I plan on doing easy hang board 2 days a week after climbing
Weightlifting:
Bench, squat, deadlift 3x week, doing 3 sets of 4 reps, progressing weight.
Pull-ups: goal is 15 standard pull-ups, hoping to do sets of 3, gradually increasing rep count until I can do 3x10.
Abs: want to do Roll outs/toes to bar/other hard ab stuff 2-3x week.
Cardio: when I can fit it in. Biking, hiking/rucking, running are main methods.
Stop eating trash, minimize beers.

Questions:
How (or should I even?) should I incorporate ARCs? Since I only have a bouldering wall, it's my main option to build my endurance/power endurance.
What days should I do which? Should I do all of the above?

Long post, but I wanted to be thorough!

You sound like the kind of person with the kind of goal for which Rock Climbers Training Manual book was written.

About a third of your ideas are at best useless toward achieving your goal - (might be counter-productive, e.g. bench presses).

Ken

Hey dude,

So you wrote a long post so here is a long post in return.

I think what is more beneficial is figuring out what your weaknesses are and blasting away at them. I don't mean like in climbing (slopers, pinches, crimps, etc...) I mean are the routes you're looking to do shouldery? Core intensive?

For my body type: 5'6", 128lb I found the following to be true:

5.9 - 5.10: Poor footwork and forearm strength were limiters
5.10 - 5.11: Core strength and biceps needed work
5.11 - 5.12: Even more core but back and shoulders were key
5.12+: Back, shoulders, and lats were my biggest limiters.

These might be universal but I have no way of knowing since I only have my body as a reference.

So my goal is to climb 5.13 in the next year.

Unfortunately, I injured my finger which took me out of climbing. HOWEVER, it has forced me into variations of HIIT workouts. (Google HIIT workout for an all you can eat buffet of articles and training plans)

------------------------ My Workout ---------------------------------

Here's what I came up with for my power endurance training. I do this 2-3 times a week but NEVER two days in a row.

45 Minute Cap NO MATTER WHAT:

The idea is that you just try to do as much as you can in 45 minutes. A set doesn't count unless you complete the set. So if you only do 7 chin-ups before dropping, don't count the set.

When I started I was averaging 70% completion for 6 of the workouts and completing 2 or 3. In two weeks I was able to complete all but two workouts and averaged 80% completion on the ones I didn't finish. The idea is that it's not supposed to be possible to complete the workout. If you complete the workout, bump up the sets or the weight a little bit for everything and blast away again.

For you, just swap out whatever workouts you don't feel like working on for areas you want to focus on. You'll see mine has a lot of back, shoulders, biceps, triceps. It's definitely top-heavy but that's just what I'm looking for at the moment.

A Day:

50 Regular Chin ups
50 Pushups
200 40lb Lat Pulls (split left/right)
100 8 lb. Medicine Ball Crunches
100 Hanging Leg Lifts
100 25lb Triceps Press
100 Sitting Triceps Press
50 Burpees

B Day:

15 Frenchies (5 second hold)
50 Pushups
200 40lb Lat Pulls (split left/right)
100 8lb. Medicine Ball Crunches
100 Hanging Leg Lifts
500 50 lb. Calf Presses
100 Sitting Triceps Press
50 Burpees

Breakdown:

Chin Ups - Nothing special, sets of 10.
Pushups - Nothing special, sets of 10
Lat Pulls - 40 pound dumbell, keep your shoulder up to engage the back more
Crunches - Feet under something heavy, lean back, throw the ball up in the air and catch it before coming back up. Sets of 20.
Leg Lifts: Nothing fancy, sets of 20
Sitting Tricep press: Look like this.
Burpees: Nothing fancy but I do them to keep my heart rate up.
Frenchies: Look them up, they're awful. Sets of 3.

Here is a link to a sheet I use to track my workout as I'm actually doing it. I'd be more than willing to send you the Word file for it if you wanted to. That way you could change whatever you want. It just helps you keep track of what you have done while your dead tired. You don't have to do any kind of order. I've found an order I like but it's not what is on the sheet. Take from it what you will but it's been working for me so far.

imgur.com/aczasVh

Cheers.

kenr wrote: About a third of your ideas are at best useless (might be counter-productive, e.g. bench presses).

Alli Rainey likes them.

allirainey.com/home/2016/03…

I'm liking the idea of seeking out weaknesses- I think my plan to do moderate hangboarding, more core work, and climbing overhanging routes are all good in that vein. I feel like I generally can move efficiently (climb quietly, etc), can identify rests, and can balance well enough, but I'm also feeling like grip strength/endurance is a hold up- my arms burn out much faster than my lats. Since doing more core stuff, I am able to keep my feet from cutting on overhangs better.

So the other weakness is the endurance- I can hangdog my way up 11s I feel like; every set of moves tends to be doable, it's just doing them stacked on top of each other is what gets me. Hence wanting to incorporate ARCing.

I realize that my squats/deadlift/bench press aren't exactly helping climbing, but I need to maintain that strength for other reasons, and I feel like it will improve my overall body composition. With the bench (and I'll be doing military presses too), I feel like it's good to balance the antagonists, and my upper arms just feel too small! I could use a little here- my goal is to bench 1.25x bodyweight, which I may modify once I get a little closer to bodyweight reps.

I like the HIIT, I'm a little unsure how well it would translate to climbing aside from weight loss (and I just don't like doing them, which probably means it's good for me haha)

Everyone will decide what works for them but I took a fair bit from this particular episode of Training Beta. I think a lot of the TB podcast isn't particularly useful because it's mostly talking to V12-V14 crushers whose workouts are absurd for the average person but this one was pretty good as it was from a trainers perspective and not a pro climber.

trainingbeta.com/media/matt…

The first 20 minutes is about his personal climbing but the training part starts at 20:00.

Also, at roughly 52:10:

"There are no NFL players right now getting ready for the super bowl who say, "Hey bro, wanna go play some football?"

"Swimmers aren't randomly hopping in the pool and as soon as they get tired they jump out of the pool and say 'yeah I'm gonna like chill for a second.'"

- Referring to how absurd it is that we think just hanging out and bouldering at the gym will make any serious progress in our climbing. Athletes in other sports have already figured out significant progress in training and we can and should tap into that.

KrisFiore wrote:"There are no NFL players right now getting ready for the super bowl who say, "Hey bro, wanna go play some football?" "Swimmers aren't randomly hopping in the pool and as soon as they get tired they jump out of the pool and say 'yeah I'm gonna like chill for a second.'" - Referring to how absurd it is that we think just hanging out and bouldering at the gym will make any serious progress in our climbing. Athletes in other sports have already figured out significant progress in training and we can and should tap into that.

Making sure I understand the context before watching- Are they saying that you should be systematic, or is it saying not to train solely on the sport itself (ie player playing football, swimmers swimming). I 100% agree in making the best use of my time, and I loathe the gym groupie types (especially the gifted ones who already send harder than me cause they weigh nothing!)

Also, in general- I like the things I'm wanting to work on, and I think most of it is focused correctly but I'm unsure of how to structure my week, and how to structure my climbing sessions (should I ARC, just climb hard, hangboard, 4x4s, etc?). I suck at keeping a schedule but I feel like if I can at least try to be methodical and goal-oriented that I'll improve my success. I hope it doesn't seem like I've made my mind up and just want validation, but there is a degree of that present. Kinda wanting to see what others who have goals outside of climbing have done or are doing to try to achieve or maintain all of them.

Nivel Egres wrote: Actually, a lot of skill-oriented athletes do exactly that - practice their sport. You ROI as a climber would always be skill first, sport-specific strength second and general fitness last. Looking at the very top is pointless since they have their technique dialed and they do indeed spend most of their time "doing it" already.

For sure, not saying you should only lift but the context is that going to the gym and messing around on boulder problems for 2 hours isn't training. Which I'd agree with.

It would be helpful to define what 5.12 you want to do. Is it outside/inside?
If you are going to the Red River gorge, ARCing would probably be key. If you are shooting for a 5.12a at New River or Little River, power might be a little more important.

Training beta recently posted a pod-cast with Neil Greshem aimed at training for the 5.11 climber. Informative and worth a listen.

Kris have you considered doing a max strength phase before that power endurance work out? Using a weight you can't lift more than 5 reps, but no reps done to failure. If you don't go to failure it's not hypertrophy, you won't gain muscle mass. Since the theory behind it is that your nervous system learns to recruit more muscle fibers it would work well before PE.

Luke, if you can ARC mostly staying on V0 I would incorporate more ARC training. When I went from that point to being able to stay on V1 continually I noticed a huge jump in what I was able to do on routes. I think most of it actually came from technique improvements, not capillary density (although recovery on routes is easier now also). Learning subtle changes in technique, realizing how much more I could pull my hips to the wall on a vertical route by pushing in hard to my toes and engaging my glutes really let me take a lot of weight off my arms. I noticed the biggest change on crimpy routes, for example I did a route at the gym last night that starts on all two finger pad crimps for the first half, then goes to four finger crimps as it gets steep, and ends in a series of V3 bouldering moves on larger holds. When I got to the underclings 3/4 of the way up the route I had ZERO pump going still. Before the ARC training I might have been able to make up half the route before pumping out and falling off.

SMR-

I actually just looked at the Red today by chance- weird!

I was thinking that might actually be a good choice- work up to it and then spend several days up there and work up a base (It's hard to find close areas in/near Georgia with a wide variety of climbs at 5.11+, especially that aren't terrifying).

As I've read responses and thought about it more, I agree I should "select" a 5.12. Definitely outdoors, Sport, and probably somewhat overhanging?

Someone above posted a link to TrainingBeta, and that's one resource I hadn't seen yet. I'm looking forward to listening!

Nick-

I am also shooting for minimal hypertrophy (some bodybuilding or similar resources say that some size increase brings stronger tendons & structure, which I think I'll believe) and am generally doing 4 reps as a max.

Regarding ARCing- my gym has boudlering only, so I traverse and try to weave problems into the ARC, so I honestly am probably doing more V2- as an average. I can see how it would help.

My question, which may be guided a little better by my response to SMR above, is how best should I incorporate ARCs? If I can climb 3x week, and intend on an easy hangboard session two of those days, could/should ARCing be done frequently? or in a beginning phase? I know I'm late in the season, but I try to climb year round, being off a few months won't mess me up too bad.

I guess I also don't want to over train. I feel like that might be an issue too. Or a recipe for burnout.

Nick Drake wrote:Kris have you considered doing a max strength phase before that power endurance work out? Using a weight you can't lift more than 5 reps, but no reps done to failure. If you don't go to failure it's not hypertrophy, you won't gain muscle mass. Since the theory behind it is that your nervous system learns to recruit more muscle fibers it would work well before PE.

For sure I have but I spent the winter bouldering so I've been trying to get that endurance and overall fitness back up for the outdoor season. But I have been thinking of lowering the time and upping the intensity. Maybe do like 25 minutes which would be a pretty big drop.

Maybe go to the gym, look over how the routes are set first and try to find as many closely set V1 and V2 problems. Climb them up and down, traverse w/o getting off the wall to start the next one as quickly as possible. If you find you can sustain that for half an hour, really on the smaller holds, then you might not gain as much from ARC training.

Personally when I first tried it in the fall I found that I had terrible forearm endurance (not a surprise since I had spent more time on low angle trad/alpine). When I tried overhanging sport routes I would fall because I just simply couldn't hold on and didn't recover on great jugs that should have been rests. I did half hour ARC sessions after normal climbing twice a week for about a month. I might have had even better results with another session a week, or doubling up another set each night, but honestly that's about all my skin could take with my gyms newer holds.

When you do fall on a route what is the usual cause? I went back to your original post and saw you mention falling when there is a harder side pull and that you haven't done as much steep climbing. On a juggy 45 degree route (where grip strength doesn't matter much) can you keep you feet on the entire way or do they pop sometimes? Core work might help also if you have trouble keeping tension.