Do You Say Something?

Swallow your pride and always say something. If you're nice about it, and they're good people, they'll respond well. This just happened to me in J-Tree not too long ago - guy got to the top of SW Corner and had no idea how to set up a top-rope or get down. I helped them out, they were perfectly gracious, and I made some friends for the day. Of course, they were Canadian, so maybe that's why they were nice about it.

Consider the alternatives:

1. You say nothing, they continue climbing using unsound methods, but don't get hurt. This reinforces their confidence that they know what they're doing. Very Bad.

2. You say nothing. They get hurt or killed. Very very Bad.

3. You say something, they respond poorly and continue doing what they're doing; same result as 1. and 2., but you won't feel bad either way because you tried. There might even be a legal benefit to this (I'm not a lawyer).

4. You say something (tactfully), they respond poorly but change what they're doing. Very good. No one gets hurt, a minor ego bruising, but everyone is better for it.

5. You say something (tactfully), they respond nicely, change what they're doing, ask you for more help (or seek help elsewhere). Perfect! You maybe even made a friend.

I should add that what exactly you say depends a lot on what you know. If you yourself are not trained and knowledgeable, then you should still say something, but keep your own ego and ignorance out of it - say "hey, I'm not sure if that's the safest method to be using...I'm not sure what is, maybe we should find someone who knows?"

Ted Pinson wrote:Dylan: did you at least tie limiter knots? A quick overhand on each side of the biners minimizes the shock loading he is describing, although even without it you would be hard pressed to argue that a sliding X toprope is a "yer gunna die" situation. I agree that one should be tactful. When I was climbing with the CMC one time, a guy gave me crap for using a BFK, calling it a "fake knot." He wanted me to instead run independent legs of webbing and attach them all separately to the masterpoint carabiners, equalizing by tying off the strand with an overhand knot. I pointed out that achieving true equalization with this method was next to impossible and that you ran a risk of triaxial loading...but, some people are set in their ways.

Ted, we did not have limiter knots tied, which is why I found the other climber to have made a very valid point, and why I was attentive and open to discussion. Had we done so, the irritated climber wouldn't have said anything (he'd even mentioned this exact sentiment).

Dylan Pike wrote: So, by your line of reasoning, if both bolts are new and bomber, why not just clip one? If you have a magic x and you are confident that one leg will not fail, you might as well just clip one bolt... Id argue that you should clip both bolts and minimize extension in both legs of the anchor. Just because you dont think the bolts will fail (they almost certainly will not) doesn't mean that you should remove precautions. If you really must use a sliding x, add some limiter knots. It doesnt take much additional time and really makes the anchor better.

Dylan, I completely agree, if we were so confident, we could've used one bolt. The conversation brought to light that, in the future, to keep in mind redundancy and to take necessary precautions.

Really, the point I was trying to make, is the other irritated climber brought up very valid points, points that I agreed with, he just did so in a very abrasive way. Had he kept a level head, I'd be mulling on lessons learned for the next time I set up a TR anchor, not some peeved older climber who was having a bad day. I think other people could've become abrasive with the approach he'd taken.

It's a mixed bag.

On one hand, you've got noobs who are unconfident, don't want to look like noobs in front of their even more noobish friends, and most importantly are probably ignorant of their own ignorance. Those would be the people who would tell you to mind your own business if you point out a bad anchor.

On the other hand, you have those upper-beginner or intermediate climbers who are on safety patrol, and would tell me that toproping off my anchor of two opposed quickdraws on a two-bolt anchor is a total deathtrap, and I should use and equalized cordalette with four locking biners. I would tell them to mind their own business, and they would go complain about it on mtnproject.

No need to say anything you are not the crag police or his momma/ guardian angel!Crags are too crowded now days anyways time to thin the heard. And yes I said His cuz face it anchor building is a man's job and too complex for a women's brain to handle!in fact it was probably a woman trying her best to build an anchor that you saw.

Say something if the person is in imminent danger of getting seriously hurt or die, otherwise it's not your place to teach people best practices.

R. Moran, thats hilarious. Take a chill pill though

R. Moran wrote:No need to say anything you are not the crag police or his momma/ guardian angel!Crags are too crowded now days anyways time to thin the heard. And yes I said His cuz face it anchor building is a man's job and too complex for a women's brain to handle!in fact it was probably a woman trying her best to build an anchor that you saw.

I hope you're joking or being really really sarcastic

grog m wrote:Having a bad day Greg D? You're coming off pretty intense in a couple forums...

Yes. I woke up really grumpy. Just found out I can't climb for weeks or months. Thanks for asking.

If you notice someone is really grumpy should you say something?

I had a 20 year old kid tell my 55 year old dad he was belaying me wrong. Ever since then, I always speak up.

Greg D wrote: Yes. I woke up really grumpy. Just found out I can't climb for weeks or months. Thanks for asking. If you notice someone is really grumpy should you say something?

Yes, depression kills...

I didn't say anything and neither did the people I was with, because we figured it wasn't our place to be nosey and tell other people what to do. If they want to build bad anchors and climb on them... that's their choice.

But someone asked, so they were climbing on this:

Maybe 6-8 sewn slings daisy-chained together with carabiners into one large loop. That was slung around a boulder. So: sling > biner > sling > biner > sling > biner and so on. The biners were non-locking and pressed up against the rock like the one in that photo of the tree someone posted earlier.

Then a length of—what looked like—5mm accessory cord tied into a loop, attached to one of the biners around the boulder and run over the edge of the cliff. No knots. Just looped through a biner.

Then one biner for the master point on that. But again, no knot. Just the accessory cord run through the biner. So they were basically climbing on a shoe lace. Nothing was backed up. Nothing was redundant. No master point knot. And their anchor was basically relying on 5mm accessory cord.

Maybe that's a valid way to set an anchor? I've taken a few classes from AMGA-certified guides, and I've read the two commonly-recommended anchor books out there, and I've never seen something like that suggested as a valid method of setting an anchor.

Maybe in an emergency? But if you have a group of like 6 people and you're doing laps on that anchor all day... I dunno. I wouldn't climb on it.

That's totaly fine. Unless that cord is tied with the new variation of the EDK called the flat 8. Do you know what knot they used?

Disclosure: that anchor is not fine and the flat 8 is deadly and not a variation of the EDK despite what a recent climbing magazine said.

powhound84 wrote: Well I'll give it to you that this is retarded. However, the lack of knots is irrelevant since there is only 1 anchor point.

Knots in the cord could prevent failure if one of the two strands of "shoelace" were to wear through. But redundancy was far from present in these people's minds. It almost as if they were trying to incorporate as many independent failure points as possible.

I think it would have been worth prodding to see if these people were aware of how cheap and useful a length of webbing is.

Ya that looks jengus.

On another note I spoke up the other day. Mr. Noob know it all 'taught' his gf to belay him with a gri for about 20 seconds, then started climbing. her belay 'technique' was to grip the cam closed with one hand (at all times) while pulling out slack with the other I shit you not.

Even this type of shit I would maybe say nothing about if the guy was just crushing the route, i.e., in solo mode. But he was clearly not (legs shaking as he topped out). Plus this was chuckawalla wall in st george, which is sandy choss and not exactly the best rock quality.

I spoke up, telling her to grab the brake strand and not to let go of it. My partner gave her a backup belay as she lowered him. She thanked us, relieved.

after the dude came down I spoke up again. He was telling his friend what a great job she did and I couldn't keep my mouth shut: "No she didn't do a good job man, she didn't have her brake hand on the rope and she held the cam shut the whole time. So, not a good job."

His response: "well I didn't die so I guess it's fine"

I usually speak up when I see the blind leading the blind. But there is definitely an art to doing it without pissing off the egotistical noob

powhound84 wrote: If they were really using 5mm, adding knots would push that cord close enough to the breaking point that I say fuuuuuck that. With or without knots, fuuuuuuck that.

Assuming the knot was tied correctly, that configuration would have held ~8KN. No way a TR fall of any kind would've generated close to that kind of force. I've been in plenty situations w/ far less margin of safety, only I usually know it, the newbies toproping probably didn't.

Dylan Pike wrote: So, by your line of reasoning, if both bolts are new and bomber, why not just clip one? If you have a magic x and you are confident that one leg will not fail, you might as well just clip one bolt... Id argue that you should clip both bolts and minimize extension in both legs of the anchor. Just because you dont think the bolts will fail (they almost certainly will not) doesn't mean that you should remove precautions. If you really must use a sliding x, add some limiter knots. It doesnt take much additional time and really makes the anchor better.

Not all bolts are bomber. Depends on who put them. It amazes me that people have such blind faith in bolts...

Here's my general rule of thumb:

If an anchor looks bad enough that it ACTUALLY has a chance of failing, I will say something. I see anchors all the time that aren't perfect or look a little messy, however it will clearly still hold just fine under normal circumstances. The rap anchor up thread for instance is obviously not ideal, but I dont necessarily see any impending doom.

I've been climbing for about a decade (which isn't super long) and I probably only encounter 1-2 ACTUAL hazards a year. My most recent one was a top rope anchor with webbing tied through each bolt hanger and their rope was running directly through the webbing. For those of you counting at home, there were exactly 0 carabiners used in this anchor. By the time I noticed it the rope had nearly melted through one of the legs of the "anchor". I said something then, and they still didn't like it despite seeing melted nylon. I even offered to give them some 7 mil cord and a few carabiners but they declined.

I will say when I came back about an hour later there was new webbing and biners in place, so even if it bruised some egos at least they fixed the problem.

I'm a bit skeptical when an admitted beginner feels the need to correct a more experienced climber, much less a guide. But in this case, the anchor you illustrated is certainly sketchy: for starters, my biggest concern is that the anchor rope could pop off that rounded turtle shell of a rock, but even assuming that aspect of the anchor is exaggerated in your illustration and that the anchor rock is bomber, relying on a single loop of 5mm cord, which could easily abrade during an extended top session, is pretty damn sketchy.

Climbing is all about risk management. If you are top-roping, there is simply no reason not to reasonably minimize the risk and go prepared with plenty of webbing or static line and redundant locking biners, especially when other climber's lives are dependent on your anchor. In risk management terms, you greatly reduce the risk for very little cost -- just a bit more weight on the approach, and you may even save time setting up the anchor when you have plenty of equipment.

As for raising your concern with another party, I agree with others that one's approach will make a big difference. I tend to lead with a question as if to ask for their advice, rather than assuming I know more and putting them on the defensive by directly criticizing their anchor, e.g. "Hey, I'm learning about building top-rope anchors, and would you mind explaining about your set up? I think I'd be concerned about not using a redundant loop, especially with a 5mm cord." Or in this case perhaps, "Hey, I noticed you're relying on a single 5mm loop for your anchor; would you like to borrow my cordelette or some webbing to back it up?"

If an anchor is truly sketchy, I'd sleep better knowing that I tried to help avoid a potential life-threatening accident, even at the risk of experiencing a potentially unpleasant encounter. If they blow you off, it's on them.

Edited to add: Bill C, I agree with your points.

I just publicly heckle the shit out of the offenders in that particular situation. Rhetorical questions seem to do well like, "so you do want to die" and, "that's gotta be the wackest shit I have ever seen" (do that one right before the girlfriend jumps on the rope). Sometimes I talk about how it resembles the anchors I built when I was 12 years old and learning how to trad climb.

No, it doesn't make me friends, no my climbing partners never appreciate it and hide in shame that they know such an asshole.

But most importantly:

Yes, it does turn knobblets off from the outdoor climbing, which is, of course, the best possible outcome.

With a sport defined by masochists, I am surprised that so many are concerned about feelings which obviously need to be hurt, lol.

Stagg54 wrote: Not all bolts are bomber. Depends on who put them. It amazes me that people have such blind faith in bolts...

Id like to clarify that I wasnt advocating for people to trust single point anchors. Just using that line of reasoning to point out the flawed logic of using a sliding x with no limiter knots on bolts. Reread my post. I said to use both.