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Quantity and spacing of ice screws...

Original Post
Shepido · · CO · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 50

I've started leading ice this season - just easy stuff at this point, but I try and take time to watch other leaders whenever I can just to see what I can learn and compare how they protect the route versus what I would do. I’ve noticed that other leaders really vary the amount and spacing of their pro.

One afternoon in Ouray I stood on the upper bridge watching two separate leaders head up different WI5 routes in the lead only area. One placed a mere 6 screws in a route that was probably 140 ft long. The guy a few lines over placed around 10-12 screws on a pitch of similar length. A small crowd gathered to watch, and a few commented that it was ridiculous how much pro he was putting in, one guy going so far as to call it a shit show.

I’ve sort of noticed this underlying attitude with ice leading that essentially skill and pro are inversely related, if you’re a great ice climber you’ll place just a hand full of screws in a whole route, and if you place a lot of pro you’re either inexperienced or in over your head.

I’ve also read this forum post below probably 10+ times, and noted that several people who had taken falls said now they put more pro in now and are more conservative with their leading.

Anyone fall on an ice screw on lead?

I personally at this point try and lace everything up, and I just don’t lead anything where I can’t lace it up.

However, I’m interested to hear others thoughts about ice pro, run it out, lace it up, etc? Has seeing/taking a fall changed your own take on how much pro to put in?

Max Tepfer · · Bend, OR · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 2,513
Shepido wrote:A small crowd gathered to watch, and a few commented that it was ridiculous how much pro he was putting in, one guy going so far as to call it a shit show. I’ve sort of noticed this underlying attitude with ice leading that essentially skill and pro are inversely related, if you’re a great ice climber you’ll place just a hand full of screws in a whole route, and if you place a lot of pro you’re either inexperienced or in over your head.
Climbing is a form of personal self-expression. How we choose to protect a pitch is directly related to our risk tolerance and comfort in the terrain. Negatively judging others for putting in a lot of gear (either on a pitch of ice or on a gear route) is BS. While many of us would agree it's more fun/easier to run it out because things flow more and you spend less time in pumpy situations, running it out for fear of the peanut gallery calling you a shit show should be avoided. When you feel ready, you should run it out because it feels like the natural thing to do. (ie: the climbing feels easy for you and the gear feels somewhat less important than it used to) You shouldn't do it because you're looking over your shoulder at the people around you.

"The best climber is the one having the most fun." We don't get to tell each other how to have fun unless our fun is putting someone else at risk.
TheIceManCometh · · Albany, NY · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 621

Well said, Max. +1

Markuso · · Fernie · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 95
Shepido wrote: Anyone fall on an ice screw on lead?


Thanks for the link, that was a good read.

Max's response there was a good one, agree 100%.

I'm far from an experienced leader, having just started this year like you. My thinking is that if I'm at a good stance, I'm going to place a screw. That's pretty easy to do on well travelled WI3's, so I wind up placing quite a few screws (I think). That will probably change once I start leading harder routes with less good stances to place pro. I rarely ever think about how high above my last piece I am, usually I prioritize thinking about ensuring my tool placements are solid, my feet are good, and where/how I'm going to place pro. If I need to run it out a bit to get to a better stance, I think I'd be pretty comfortable doing that as long as my tool placements are good and my feet are solid. I'm definitely interested in hearing about others thoughts as well.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Shepido wrote:The guy a few lines over placed around 10-12 screws on a pitch of similar length. A small crowd gathered to watch, and a few commented that it was ridiculous how much pro he was putting in, one guy going so far as to call it a shit show.
Sadly, there are people in most sports whose self-image is so out-of-whack that they need to belittle others.

Run it out, sew it up, do whatever you please. And respect others' styles of climbing.
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10

this is one of the all-time best post on MP

Max Tepfer wrote: Climbing is a form of personal self-expression. How we choose to protect a pitch is directly related to our risk tolerance and comfort in the terrain. Negatively judging others for putting in a lot of gear (either on a pitch of ice or on a gear route) is BS. While many of us would agree it's more fun/easier to run it out because things flow more and you spend less time in pumpy situations, running it out for fear of the peanut gallery calling you a shit show should be avoided. When you feel ready, you should run it out because it feels like the natural thing to do. (ie: the climbing feels easy for you and the gear feels somewhat less important than it used to) You shouldn't do it because you're looking over your shoulder at the people around you. "The best climber is the one having the most fun." We don't get to tell each other how to have fun unless our fun is putting someone else at risk.
JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10

There is an art to placing screws. Keeping yourself from hitting the ground is key. I've seen newish leaders head up placing gear every x feet. When they are placing the 3rd screw they are 3x off the ground protected by one screw. Say x = 15 ft, they are looking at a 45 ft ground fall if that one screw doesn't hold.

I place more screws than I used to. Especially when I'm close to the ground and or a ledge. They are so much easier to place than before, so why not do it? Flow is one of the main reasons not to place tons of gear, as Max said. And flow is fun.

As to the shitshow climber--maybe it was more than just placing lots of screws that engendered the comments from the peanut gallery. Maybe he was obviously timid and/or wobbly. But there's no shame in placing lots of screws.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Ok, some of this sounds good but I feel Shepido's question was not answered. Here goes..

You're a new leader so place lots of screws. Choose routes you're 100% comfortable with. If you're getting sketched and or pumped, bail.

A small % of ice climbers are leading grade 5 ice. WI5 is scary. If you're in that small crowd you suck and don't climb 5s. Don't listen to people who suck.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

+1 what Bill says - place lots of screws. Even if you don't feel you need them and/or your judgemental friends are scoffing at you. You're a new ice leader! Think of it as practice (for those leads to come where you WILL need screws).

Sometime a couple years ago there was a photo in a catalog - I want to say a BD catalog - of some big name climber on a fat, grade 4+ ish route. With a screw every 6 feet or so. It made me feel all warm inside.

Disclaimer - my partners used to call me "Sir Screw-a-Lot".

Brandonian · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 35

1. Place as many screws as you need to stay safe.
2. Falling is accidental so by nature it happens when you aren't expecting it.
3. Every climb of any grade has its own challenges.
4. Falling ice can crush you off of a climb of any grade.
5. Consider your second they have to deal with the mess!

Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70

Cold Thistle has a two-part post on the fall that killed a legend.

coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

Pay attention to the author's ultimate conclusion.

Shepido · · CO · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 50
JohnnyG wrote:There is an art to placing screws. Keeping yourself from hitting the ground is key. I've seen newish leaders head up placing gear every x feet. When they are placing the 3rd screw they are 3x off the ground protected by one screw. Say x = 15 ft, they are looking at a 45 ft ground fall if that one screw doesn't hold. I place more screws than I used to. Especially when I'm close to the ground and or a ledge.
This is an excellent point. It seems like those first probably 4 or so screws are pretty important, and that they be pretty closely spaced.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264

I dunno, I think in ice climbing simple rules of keeping leader off the deck don't apply. For example if the start of the climb is an easy cone, leaders usually don't place any gear till they get to the base of steep climbing and the cone could be as high as 50 feet or over. I've also seen newish leaders place so many screws you start questioning the integrity of ice after that.

Ice climbing is controlled solo, and you chose how much you are willing to solo between screw placements. If you think you can fall on screws all day every day, you are in the wrong sport, IMHO. If you don't think you could climb between reasonable stances, or you can't find good rests on a steep climb to shake out or place a screw, you are probably over your head and should dial back. In most cases not so solid ice leaders, usually have a poor basic technique.

Jim T · · Colorado · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 469

People who are good at what they do generally don't criticize the efforts of others. I would ignore people who criticize somebody for over protecting since their opinion is probably not valuable.

michael voth · · Ft. Collins, CO · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 75

Iv'e been climbing ice for some years now. What I have experienced personally is that if I start to get tired, I will probably place fewer screws to save energy on steep stuff. These days 5+ feels like a fun romp without getting tired, so I place more screws since saving energy is not a concern. That being said putting screws in every body length is probably excessive, but you dont want just one keeping you from a catastrophic fall. So In my opinion a climber who has the strength to place more pro is a stronger climber than the one who runs it out, they may not be as bold as the latter, but they are safer and I would rather climb with someone who puts in more pro than someone who will come a few feet from the deck in a fall b/c they are run out.

EDIT: one thing you dont want to fall into is placing more pro b/c youre hanging on your screws/tools to avoid falling. if you are getting that pumped of course hang on a screw, its better than falling. But the lesson there is you should probably get stronger before climbing something that hard again, and not make it a habit to get anywhere near that pumped on a pure ice route.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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