Leaving Draws

The point was that we as a community need to do our best to avoid losing places we care about. It is true that the examples given may be ever-present and are sad and depressing, but when we stop trying to take care of our playgrounds, as well as educating others to do the same, we risk more regulations.

Okay Justin, lets review this for the last time, as you think this is "stupid."

1. I leave $5.00 on a park bench. That bill has no purpose, and any schmuck can pick it up with minimal effort. I would not expect it back.

2. Lets say I go to a sport area for the weekend, lets say Rifle or Maple. I try a route that is just outside of my comfort zone, and spend the whole day on it. I am sure that I can send the next day if I rest.
a. I am not going clean it and rehang draws the next day.
b. If someone gets on it while I'm attempting it they:
A. will be psyched to use my draws (if sport climber)
B. will be indignant that my draws are hung if not sport climber.
(What the hell are you doing in a sport area if not a sport climber?)
c. Only a climber would be able to take these draws.
d. It would take that climber some effort.
e. It is obvious to any imbecile that those draws are there for a reason.
f. Only a motivated asshat would take those draws.

3. The end.

ottice webb wrote: Wrong, dont do that its a cleaning beaner try again

No, it's a bail biner, not a cleaning biner.
And it's not spelled "beaner".

jaredsmokescigars wrote:Indian creek does require traditional gear but is far from what I think many of us would classify as "trad" climbing in regards to ethics and style.

Actually the IC scene these days resembles very much what the Gunks had become 10-15 yrs ago.

jaredsmokescigars wrote: Who finishes a climb, possibly the crux move, by dynoing to the chains or lugs 20 #2's up a 1 pitch climb.

I can think of climbs in Yosemite that meet both of those criteria.

Having the pro ruthlessly wired or even pre-placed is hardly a new thing in trad climbing and is not unique to IC.

Tim Lutz wrote:Leave Justin alone! He follows 5.11, so he knows a lot about hard sport climbing and leaving draws.

Plus he's 25, so he has tons of life experience to draw on as well.

Marc801 wrote: No, it's a bail biner, not a cleaning biner. And it's not spelled "beaner".

In fairness, sometimes it is a cleaning biner or draw, meant to hold the lowering climber near the wall, so he/she doesn't swing into something painful. Taking cleaning biners/draws is usually thoughtless and inconsiderate.

Mark E Dixon wrote: In fairness, sometimes it is a cleaning biner or draw, meant to hold the lowering climber near the wall, so he/she doesn't swing into something painful. Taking cleaning biners/draws is usually thoughtless and inconsiderate.

Granted, but for every cleaning biner there are something like, what, 50 bail biners? A 100? Chances are a lone biner on a sport route is a bail biner.

This thread is a perfect of how you only need a very few number to troglodytes to ruin any situation.

Most people would not steal because they see it as stealing.

A few jack asses think of stealing as cleaning up.

Once again, climbers are our own worst enemies, nearly every time.

So, it's cool to take those draws?

A'ight?

Shit, YOLO.

Jake Jones wrote:I'm assuming you already know this- most people do, but it's worth restating for those that do not.

+1

I've added a section on the NRG page called ethics that lists all of this for those that are interested.

Please don't take my draws. Yes, these really are my draws. I hung them in December on skinny legs, a route that I was hoping to finish before Christmas. Unfortunately I didn't and with the holidays, work, and weather I haven't had a chance to go back and redpoint. I left them because so far as I knew leaving draws on a route like skinny legs, that doesn't see alot of attention, was fine. Use them if you want to try a really fun route, they're up and they're all good draws.
Don't take them though.

Here's to a good, dry spring on the east coast so we can all go out and climb some cool routes on good rock.

Thanks for not stealing my draws.

Just don't do this in the gorge and you shouldn't have a problem.

I'm heading out there today and will see if they are still there.

Brian.P wrote:Please don't take my draws. Yes, these really are my draws. I hung them in December on skinny legs, a route that I was hoping to finish before Christmas. Unfortunately I didn't and with the holidays, work, and weather I haven't had a chance to go back and redpoint. I left them because so far as I knew leaving draws on a route like skinny legs, that doesn't see alot of attention, was fine. Use them if you want to try a really fun route, they're up and they're all good draws. Don't take them though. Here's to a good, dry spring on the east coast so we can all go out and climb some cool routes on good rock. Thanks for not stealing my draws.

Taking this a different direction, anyone know what 3 months of freeze/thaw cycle plus UV will do to the dogbones? I'm glad no one has stolen your stuff, but if I were you I'd be concerned with their integrity.

There are old porter draws in various places that still take falls and still hold up after God knows how long.

Good to know. It'd be an interesting experiment to leave a few draws out over a winter and tension test them in the spring. It seems like they're pretty resilient, just the thought of ice crystals forming between the nylon fibers doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy about whipping on them.

Matt Stroebel wrote:Good to know. It'd be an interesting experiment to leave a few draws out over a winter and tension test them in the spring. It seems like they're pretty resilient, just the thought of ice crystals forming between the nylon fibers doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy about whipping on them.

Some data here: blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Based on what we've seen here at the New, long term UV exposure has the most damaging effect. Draws in the Hole (shade) last for many, many years without breaking. But in the Cirque (full sun) we've had them break under body weight. That's not scientific, just stating that I think the only broken draws we've had were in the Cirque...and there used to be a lot of tat out there.

Sidenote, Sharma onsighted Proper Soul in 2008 on old fixed slings left by Brad Nelson around 2000. Just a few weeks prior I'd taken one down that had broken just from the wind blowing it against the cliff. The carabiner had fallen off. Good thing he didn't fall!

Matt Stroebel wrote:Good to know. It'd be an interesting experiment to leave a few draws out over a winter and tension test them in the spring. It seems like they're pretty resilient, just the thought of ice crystals forming between the nylon fibers doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy about whipping on them.

If that were true, we'd have ice climbers dropping like flies.

Thanks Chris I appreciate that. Out of curiosity, why do you say not to leave draws up in the gorge? Ive seen draws left on lines like the racist and especially quinsana for what seems like weeks? Does it go against park policy or is it just more likely they'll be taken in those other areas? Just wondering. Either way thanks for checking on those draws for me. I'm going to try and make it down for the day Saturday to have a look myself.

Brian.P wrote:Out of curiosity, why do you say not to leave draws up in the gorge? Ive seen draws left on lines like the racist and especially quinsana for what seems like weeks? Does it go against park policy or is it just more likely they'll be taken in those other areas?

It is explicitly illegal within the gorge, which unlike the Meadow and Summersville, is on heavily managed National Park Service land.

Some routes have had draws left on them for a while, but it is technically illegal. The NRG community largely polices itself, though. For example, the guy who left draws on the Racist when he had no chance of sending the route was given a stern talking-to, then his draws were taken down. Nobody respects him anymore.