Gannett Peak/Wind River Range

Gitrinec wrote:No I haven't heard back from CWC, some of those studies only sell their data unfortunately, but who knows.. It's a double wall tent but remarkably about 4.6 pounds, I didn't get one of the overly well known ones, so Snow caves may end up being my friend, I put it up already to check it out, it seems pretty sturdy, I'm not sure how well it ventilates yet though. I think I'm going to end up needing some kind of gear storage for all the extra stuff I've bought. I'm working on doing an overlay of the markups you did and adding it on top of my custom topo maps.

Sorry, read your post too fast. So it's double wall, great. This will sound like a super hairball idea and you have no idea how hairball it is, however, if you can talk a car wash to let you put it in the middle (no cars please) and let 'er rip, that's a good test. But they usually don't let you do it; missed biz opportunity.

Four lbs and change? Fabulous.

Tom Nyce wrote:I'm not sure it adds anything other than trivia to this thread, but... I visited Alexis Kelner (author of "Wasatch Tours" 1976 guide) in 1984 and he showed me pics of his winter Gannet ascent. Alexis is a great photographer, and he lugged a large format camera into the Winds on that trip. Those unpublished B+W prints impressed me more than slideshows of famous polar explorations that I've also attended. He had some incredible pics taken while enduring high winds in Titcomb Basin.

Tom, not trivia at all. I know Alexis very well; hardman of the hardmen. Yeah, his winter stuff on Gannett & his photos are legendary; competes with Washburn's and Adams any day. But everything Kelner has done has legendary quality.

Have not seen him in awhile. Unfortunately, his Gannett photos are not published (to the best of my knowledge).

Fortunately my summer/fall kit for the winds is pretty dialed. I've managed a couple of 3 day trips with around 28 pounds including food (50-55mi round trip).

I can't say that my winter kit is as dialed. We've had an unseasonably warm winter here so far, the coldest night time temp registered around -20. For reference, Fremont lake only froze over a few days ago. Great for BC skiing but I'm afraid it's just not preparing me adequately for winter in the winds. If this trend keeps up, our trip could be easier than I thought.

In regards to getting to the trail head. At this point, the road is only plowed up to the ski resort. Ideally, you'd have someone to snow machine you to the wilderness boundary, saving you around 8 miles of slogging. Unfortunately we don't rent snow machines out of the shop. The closest place that I know of would be Jackson but I may be able to put you in touch with a local or two who would be willing to transport you there, for a small fee.

By this time you should have realized that snow shoeing will not cut it. Skinning in will by far be the easiest. Right now we have no real base of snow and just hopping off skis will plant you straight into dick deep powder. On a better note, our snow conditions are MUCH better than Jacksons. We are much more stable and aren't plagued by the wind blown faceted layers of crusty crud snow (knock on wood). I've started to break trail a bit but a couple of recent storms have no doubt erased any traces of a skin track.

Warbonnet, do you use any particular kind of sled setup? I've done some precursory searching on the internet but haven't found much in the way of a lightweight setup. Perhaps I'm not searching hard enough...?

And the moat: I had never seen pictures of it in winter. All I have to say is wow. I would not want to take a tumble over that thing but you may be right in saying it would be a good location for a snow cave if weather conditions called. The winds continue to amaze me.

In regards to the knifepoint glacier... I made a trip over Indian pass in late summer and didn't see any traces of crevasses in that area. Mostly bullet hard ice and snow over rock. Harrower glacier is a different story. That place is a death trap with snow on top... When the glacier is bare, you see exactly what you were standing on and it makes you shudder. Though its named after a Pinedale mayor, I'm afraid the name is very fitting.

I'm beating a dead horse but I have never heard or seen a more wild place outside of Alaska or the Northern Territory. Even in summer I have been so "out there"... There are few, if any, places where nature is truly able to do its own thing. Every time I get into the Winds I am amazed.

I'm sure I'll have more questions but let's keep the commentary going eh?

It seems to have plenty of tie down points and valances/skirts around the whole tent for piling snow onto. I'm driving up from Texas, hitting a few highpoints on the way up to Estes park for another outing with Colorado mountain School, doing an expedition prep course there for a week before I get up to Wyoming. I've got a dry rope Thankfully.

Warbonnett, yes the Wanding guide would be much appreciated, though I'm pretty much set with Those bamboo poles as the base, those seem used quite a lot for wanding and super light weight, though which Material for the Flag part, I've only gotten that bright orange tape but I can get other flagging if need be.

Warbonnet, I thought you might find this interesting, this is from 1994

Gitrinec wrote:Warbonnett, yes the Wanding guide would be much appreciated, though I'm pretty much set with Those bamboo poles as the base, those seem used quite a lot for wanding and super light weight, though which Material for the Flag part, I've only gotten that bright orange tape but I can get other flagging if need be.

Re: Wands, how long are they, what diameter (roughly) is the bamboo, and how many did you get?

Re: Flagging, forget the orange tape or any other kind of "droopy" flagging. Will post the wand construction drill tomorrow. Much better stuff for flagging and tips on putting it all together. Will add a few pointers on "wanding"; might help with your route & objective hazard (if any) marking, but especially on return; useful tricks.

Re: GE photos: great, shows a lot of stuff that still lurks. What are the tiny "bluish" squares? I think I know but tell me. I suppose I could find these on Google Earth if needed to?

There seem to be a bunch in The Skulls area; warnings? (if so, correct).

Do you want me to add a few remarks to the GE photos? This angle provides a good view to point out a few things.

DavisMeschke wrote: I can't say that my winter kit is as dialed.

My experience is winter equip never “dialed” just as weather never is. Goal: refine pain tolerance (mental, physical), then gear up or down from there. Route gear yes; minimum sum/winter survival gear always goes (see below). All else optional.

“Minimal dial” (IMO) is first aid: Minimum gear, I auto-plan worst case scenario (in relatively smaller mts. like the Winds); ready to build snow cave (with Snowclaw, not shovel), tough out three days blizzards, handful carefully chosen food (meaning “not” carefully), stove to make water (crucial – underestimated – the real killer); summit flash pack (stuff sleeping bag in it w/removable foam pad from main pack for bare minimum insulation.) Maybe a space blanket.

First aid (win/sum): Small roll duct tape – colored, not silver; butterfly bandages, Lortab (now called Vicodin – handsful – powerful pain killer – ‘script needed).

Hate knife weight but all around, inc. suturing, - 7.4 oz, Swiss Champ knife (surgical quality blades, magnifying glass for eye crap, dragging stuff out of wounds, “hook tool” to grab lost sutures if needed. REI, best $ online.

Six suture needles (curved, semi-, & straight and EYED, not SWAGED), & 4’ non-absorbable thread, two small hemostats (all at any med supply place).

If you don’t think you can sew up a bad laceration when butterflies/duct tape won’t do it, you will man/woman up and do it – rarely needed but when, you’ll do it. Only for badly bleeding wounds, no muscle penetration – keep simple but stops bad bleeding.

Practice on oranges to get texture & resistance feel. Assuming curved needle, just the first poke one side, out the other of the wound, repeat. After first two stitches, not a problem – no one now queezy, keep going. Mentally prepare to do to yourself … just do it; hesitate & you won’t do it. Keep bleeding.

I DO NOT recommend this unless med training; this is not endorsement or suggestion – only what I take and can do; I assume zero liability for your choices.

Alcohol wipes, almost used (don’t need much) tube Neosporin, tiny roll gauze, 5 knuckle bandages, 2 Ziploc baggies for ice pack, three small cig lighters (secreted around your stuff so can never lose), waterproof matches in old medication bottle. Sunscreen. More duct tape, wrap around upper part trekking poles. More duct tape.

Rescue Flash mirror 2″ by 3″ Lexan (polycarb plastic, tough, store in baggies so won’t scratch). Can double as reg mirror to remove crap from eye, preen, suture forehead/cheek, see wounded places cannot otherwise see, etc. Is a unique feature rescue signal mirror. They have a hole in the middle with a "retroreflective surface" that allows you to train a bright indicator on your target, so you’ll know for sure that you’re shining in the right place.

youtube.com/watch?v=Qu4iJykziak&ab_channel=rafowell

Total weight of first aid, inc. knife & hemostats & sun screen: “zero” weight cuz benys outweigh the 8oz & change total.

DavisMeschke wrote: Great for BC skiing but I'm afraid it's just not preparing me adequately for winter in the winds. If this trend keeps up, our trip could be easier than I thought.

That would not be my conclusion. No such thing as “easier” and “harder”, only “different”. You also answered your own rumination: “I'm afraid it's just not preparing me adequately for winter in the winds.”

DavisMeschke wrote: “… [Re:] trail head….road plowed only to ski resort: add 8 miles slog then. Unfortunately we don't rent snow machines out of the shop.

I know shop does not rent snowmobiles; some yrs ago, Outdoor Shop was great resource for info. But we always found someone to take us ie, Green River entrance, Boulder, Elkhart, Dubois, Lander, etc. Horse packers (all have snowmobiles & tougher than climbers; also best snowmobilers). Sherriff always knows snowmobilers; see grocery store post board. Jackson? – crazy.

Or post Q to Andrew Carson, (top of this string; lives in Wilson, long time Winds addict…maybe knows someone).

DavisMeschke wrote: By this time you should have realized that snow shoeing will not cut it. Skinning in will by far be the easiest

Not sure what you mean “By this time [I] should have realized….”. You mean this time this year as in “conditions” or as “advice” in general? Don’t know the former, too experienced with the latter, but third time we did entire length of Winds in winter six weeks, we did leave snowshoes behind.....we are slow learners but knew the route well by that time.

But you’re new to the Winds….you’ll figure it out (skis, snowshoes, post-holing or any combo is the best way to go; will argue that with anyone). On Gannett & other major Winds peaks, usually both skis and snowshoes, our choice anyway.

Caught in hurricane wind on skis vs. snowshoes w/winter climbing pack? No brainer. Traveling heavily crevassed fields, the real deal, might have to catch a partner on crevasse fall when both (or more) on skis?

Constant side-stepping thru crevasse fields w/skis? Suicide or slow death, not to mention always working a crevasse probe, slowly, slowly probing, feeling for the void, then when found…all back away….yawner waiting…sidestep backwards with skis….into another crevasse. Rather have changed out skis for snowshoes before that killing zone.

Snowshoes really suck…until needed & have the best, so consider these:

At 4.2 lbs (pair) & 12 oz floater tails, legendary inventor Bill Forrest’s basic, original design MSR Denali Ascents (not the new ones – not great; avoid the EVOs) were… still are most highly rated snowshoe by mountaineers.

Discontinued 2003, many shops still carry them. Last forever. The optional, extendable “floater tails” will cruise on mostly on top of 30” of new, skis will not.

Then you “will realize”, my good friend DavisMeschke (we need beers).

Also has “televators” or “heel lifts”, making Bonney approach a “simple” walk up the hill. More useful is up/down Gooseneck to summit & RT up/down Bonney….cuz bottoms have metal, serrated rails on outside edges, crampons under foot. They also gliiiiide down steep snow like no snowshoe ever made.

Are not skis but steep skiing w/heavy winter climbing pack is not easy…ask my and Andy’s (I suspect) lower back.

Find original Denali Ascents still in some shops (abt $150 w/detachable tails); $60 w/tails online, barely used. Denali “Classics” are good but no televators; “Ascents” (older ones) have televators.

Reviews (ignore the first) and pics found at trailspace.com/gear/msr/den…

DavisMeschke, you know the Winds terrain varies widely. If winter climbing addicted & want to get to the very high stuff, up super-steep, non-skiable/skinable landscape, only way up is post-holing or bomber snowshoes. Find & buy these snowshoes; strap on pack when on skis, feet when need them. Weigh nothing.

The blueish squares are just pictures people have posted in that area and they show up on Google Earth. I've got a bag of 25 and they are 4ft tall and 1/10 of an inch in diameter, they seem pretty sturdy and light. Sure any remarks are welcome on the new photos, they seem pretty detailed. Here is the response from CWC.

Hi , alas most of that data is not yet published and is still under anaysis and not yet ready for public consumption.

Hopefully we will have some stuff hitting journals in the next year or so.

Best,

Jacki

Jacki Klancher
Asst. Professor Environmental Health
Central Wyoming College
Riverton, WY
82501
jklanche@cwc.edu

DavisMeschke wrote: Warbonnet, do you use any particular kind of sled setup? I've done some precursory searching on the internet but haven't found much in the way of a lightweight setup. Perhaps I'm not searching hard enough...?

It pains me to say I could write books on this subject and who would suffer thru that, let alone my posts. Have experimented/invented sleds for years, but am not the one to turn to. Sleds ARE the answer (depending on terrain; can be more trouble than worth).

Have not searched much but this is basically what you want: visitsvalbard.com/?id=33185…

On some parts of the grind in, these would be good but maneuvering them thru trees, winding this and that, they are not so great. I wouldn’t take a sled down the Dinwoody unless you intended to camp new Gooseneck area (which I would do, BTW). But sled down means sled up & always the chance of bad weather. Were I to sled it in, would go to Titcomb, camp, hydrate, pack up flash pack but be ready to bivy on return.

Not sure I’d take a sled actually…..tempting.

DavisMeschke wrote: And the moat: I had never seen pictures of it in winter. All I have to say is wow. I would not want to take a tumble over that thing but you may be right in saying it would be a good location for a snow cave if weather conditions called.

Yes and yes. In heavy snow year, a fall would possibly be fatal cuz rocks below, not snow, but also taking a flying lesson off cornice w/piolet in hand, crampons on, something is going to get bent out of shape. Heavy winds on rock buttress prevent snow build up below; I heavily wand this area….will tell how I do it in post re: wanding.

IMO, this is a dangerous area anyway but in white-out, lost, dark (even w/headlamp which will light up the rock buttress, might not see the cornice unless careful). I give this wide berth in winter (but not too wide climber’s left on return cuz will get forced too far east, right into moulin shopping mall, everything on on sale.

Great place for a snow cave, however, have to pick the precise point to avoid howling wind (but snow caves if properly built, then usually only spindrift….but can be a bummer), AND potential rockfall from above AND right snow conditions for said cave. Where I marked it on map is about where I would put it, given that photo; is diff year/year.

If have not read up-post re: firn, strongly suggest (cuz you’ll be hanging in Pinedale for awhile anyway, sounds like….so you should know about firn). Very difficult to dig thru, even with a shovel, so have to pick an area just above firn zone & new (total) snowfall. That’s the bullseye at the big moat.

If not there, then try to make it to the next rock mini-buttress towards Bonney direction; however, there is an old bergshrund still there (see Gitrinec’s latest artwork for ‘shrund location). Snow/ice covered, it is still there. This area is not the safest for a number of reasons (a new moulin cropped up, if I understood Gitrinec correctly, or perhaps I saw one there……but if stop 100 yards before the small buttress & to climber’s right about 150 yards, should be enough snowdrift there for a snow cave.

DavisMeschke wrote: In regards to the knifepoint glacier... I made a trip over Indian pass in late summer and didn't see any traces of crevasses in that area. Mostly bullet hard ice and snow over rock.

Have not been there in some years but have seen relatively recent NASA space photos that show at least several world-classers (directly south after going completely over the pass….have to drop down & look south to see them….hidden from view in Indian Pass).

Depending on where you were, if too far west (up slope), you could not see them & that’s the problem. The lower lips are hidden cuz of the angle of view and the upper lips are huge, likely making the latter look like a giant mogul at a ski resort.

They were, and suspect still are very big. Glacier could not have shrunk that much….. I know it hasn’t.

DavisMeschke wrote: Harrower glacier is a different story. That place is a death trap with snow on top... When the glacier is bare, you see exactly what you were standing on and it makes you shudder.

It is a nasty one. Harrowing. (If you have not learned to use a crevasse probe, I highly suggest learning the art of it, because it is an art. Reading the terrain, “feeling” the probe….I hold it like a feather so I can feel the slightest lack of resistance. Some hold it in their hand like a Congolese spear…..then can’t feel any difference when the probe suddenly finds “the void”.)

I’d pick up one (BD) & start taking it everywhere…..I do, winter & spring, for crevasses but in checking out how far and how thick/thin the melted undercut is when moving off a glacier onto rock……astounding how far it may be undercut and very dangerous.

Often a dicey moment: standing on the snowfield or glacier on top of a thin undercut, the point when crampons are on (spring/summer) & have to move off snow/ice onto rock & don’t want to jump onto rock or unstable terrain with crampons on. (I never try to jump anyway, rather, sit down, take crampons off, then move off lip). Decisions, decisions. Leave on & gently move to rock/dirt, or take off first, then slip safety off? Stories of disasters at that spot.

DavisMeschke wrote: I have never heard or seen a more wild place outside of Alaska or the Northern Territory. Even in summer I have been so "out there"... There are few, if any, places where nature is truly able to do its own thing. Every time I get into the Winds I am amazed.

Am glad you can take in and appreciate the wonder of it all…..glad there are still people out there that can. No doubt, there are many Winds places where if in trouble (injury, no food/water (not found everywhere, counter intuitively), one would be in serious trouble if could not get out. Not “get help” cuz there isn’t any. Could provide a laundry list of “if in trouble….you are in trouble” places in the Winds. Know many of them all too well, several I probably don't know about....yet.

Let's grab a beer when I'm next in Pinedale.

Travel safe.

Gitrinec wrote:The blueish squares are just pictures people have posted in that area and they show up on Google Earth. I've got a bag of 25 and they are 4ft tall and 1/10 of an inch in diameter, they seem pretty sturdy and light. Sure any remarks are welcome on the new photos, they seem pretty detailed.

Gitrinec,

Great job, as usual.

At least you got a response from CWC, kudos for trying.

Will check some of the GE photo spots out....several have my curiosity. Not that familiar with GE: does the dot mean the photographer was at that spot, or is the photo OF that spot? Surely, nothing up Glacier Pass; few are that masochistic....I am one of them.

Someone was doing some serious crevasse travel in several areas of the Monsters. Interesting.

Re: your wands, perfect in number, size....now let's flag 'em (but won't be back on for several hours).

Your photos are simply great.....really good job. Will mark a few spots & you can tell me if they match up with your other work. Interesting 1994 photos.

This is my Assumption on the Photos in GE is that where the photos are taken are where they are on the map, the x/y coordinates probably from EXIF data on Digital Cameras, which I think most do although they could also be from an individual who posted the photo and input a x/y coordinate to place it on the map at that location. Because some of the images are of a distant area from the vantage point of where the image of the map is at, ie se couloir.

Warbonnet, is that picture you most recently posted of you heading up the SE couloir?

Gitrinec wrote:This is my Assumption on the Photos in GE is that where the photos are taken are where they are on the map, the x/y coordinates probably from EXIF data on Digital Cameras, which I think most do although they could also be from an individual who posted the photo and input a x/y coordinate to place it on the map at that location. Because some of the images are of a distant area from the vantage point of where the image of the map is at, ie se couloir.

uses the latest one it has access to
How does this work then if map is 1994? I would think GE has a much more current image than this one (I don't think GE was even around in those days.

They have historical images as well, some anyways.

DavisMeschke wrote:Warbonnet, is that picture you most recently posted of you heading up the SE couloir?

No, but I know them.

Warbonnet, I found this interesting, Its Melissa Arnot on her recent Alaskan climbing adventures, check out the wands, lol

Gitrinec wrote:Warbonnet, I found this interesting, Its Melissa Arnot on her recent Alaskan climbing adventures, check out the wands, lol

Hers are still made of plastic, like most. The flagging is stiffer (and not typically droopy). I have a few of the exact wands which I do not, nor ever have used; just for experiments with wand construction.

The first 3 (of 5) photos, all taken with my Samsung Galaxy 3 (ancient by today's standards); nothing special, i.e just auto flash, point and shoot. If a bright headlamp was used (as in winter Gannet), they would be incredibly bright (both the white and red).

Photo 1: Her exact type wand placed about 500 feet away from me, down a little swale & up a snowy hillside. Invisible.

Photo 2: My wands (two) placed in identical position (in fact, her type are right next to them, and like photo 1, invisible).

Photo 3: Snow stakes in a strong blizzard, about 120 ft (?), maybe closer, was hard to see. (Cool photo & with just a phone camera.)

Photo 4: Is a wand experiment (on way to the Cleaver on Rainier) and not so dorky as it looks. The perfectly rectangular wand to the rear of the tent is near what I make now. The others provided some info, but not much. But the "white" is like a flashlight, same stuff I use for white flagging, but still rectangular like the red.

Photo 5: Other uses for wands, as mentioned. Terrible, old but w/bits of reflective tape to see how they react in wind; no longer use any type of droopy, flappy flagging.

It is not just the tape that makes the wands great, but how it attaches to bamboo (& can be detached & replaced w/a different color in about 2 minutes, i.e., white flag can be made red; other colors; the wands have other tricks you will see in the "how to construct" post.)

Tape is a "metalized micro-prismatic reflective tape – Type 5"); is the brightest made, too bright for close distance and can wash out a photograph as seen; 750 candelas luminosity. The red is more "tolerable" at close range - 85 candelas. ("Candela" is different than "lumen" - often mistaken as 'brightness' or 'luminosity". Lux is irrelevant but also mistaken as "candela"; technical standards.

"Too bright" is EXACTLY what one wants in winter (can also be seen in daylight - highly reflective).

All is explained in my next post.

Depending on conditions, Mellisa's may not even be visible at 500 ft with a strong headlamp -- the material has no luminosity, or so low that it cannot be measured (there is an instrument that measures "candela", same term for "luminosity".)

The tape I use can be seen in a white out (w/in reasonable distance, depending on how "white" the white out is and how "dark" the night is - darker means more 'flash'.) There are other colors with luminosity approaching the "silver" (or white); about six different colors are best in winter, all interchangeable or replaced easily. No duct tape.

Same in photo 2 (plastic flagged wands are next to Warbonnet wands, the former invisible.)

Photo 3 was purposely shot closer & with more tape (& on a snow stake) to provide an idea how bright this stuff is.

Snowshoes are pretty worthless in that range ime, so definitely plan on doing most of your travel on skis. Make sure to bring a good binding repair kit and tools.

As for gear don't bring too much but make sure you have stove spares, usually a spare pump is enough. Bring extra fuel. Bring butter and food oils to load your meals with extra calories.

As for the crevasse thing, I would be far more concerned with environmental conditions and especially navigating a white out. What might work better with wanding is placing them across your direction of travel at a key point so you can be sure to find the pass.

Skill is way more important than equipment there.

As for the snow itself, it tends to be bottomless sugary bs in actual winter conditions, BUT if it has been windy there will be a wind crust that a good pair of floaty skis will cruise over while snowshoes will punch right through. In past years the Forest Service has contractors checking a snow monitor between Hobbs Lake and the south end of Seneca Lake, which you want to ski across. If they have put in a ski track try to stick to it. Ask them where it goes, Greg Collins used to do that job so maybe get in touch with him and or the Pinedale office. Do not try to follow the CDT from Hobbs to Seneca.

Keep in mind that a lot of folks do "winter" trips
In April, when the snowpack is becoming more easy to travel but can present interesting Avy conditions.

As for weather just keep calibrating your Suunto watch and any gains or drops in elevation should tell you what the weather is doing.

Wow, those are super reflective, now I see why you use them, especially with today's headlamps and especially at night. Do they loose some reflectivity in daylight?