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Gannett Peak/Wind River Range

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
coldfinger wrote:Bottom line is use proper Glacier travel technique. There are quite a few crevasses that parallel your direction of travel.
Apologies but must correct this: crevasses indeed parallel if rotate Dinwoody Glacier 90 degrees, otherwise by far, most crevasses approached 90 degrees.

If find yourself at parallel "crevasse", say in unwanded area, climber's left on approach, climber's right on return, then are standing on or near bergshrund, not crevasse. Also dangerous....back off slowly...are small but growing bergshrunds on climbers right on return (but a bit further up steeper slope to west, climber's right than one would otherwise go, even in white out or ground blizzard.

That said, if find oneself in truly parallel, a bit large, crevasses, say in white out, you are super way off route, that being on climber's very far right margin, way down glacier, near and below rocky buttress, traveling north. Then trouble.

Known moulin country, actually new-ish birthing ground cuz of shrinking glacier mass and flat-ish terrain where they usually appear; text book conditions. Compare to summer photo, then obvious where crevasses are, then further down glacier, but not far (1/16 mile), then moulin used car lot. Aerial photos show safe bail route.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Gitrinec wrote:I tried searching for the GPR data but no luck, I know that Central Wyoming College did a study this year using one on Gannett and Dinwoody Glacier, they are suppose to do another study next year as well, they are checking in reference to the watershed and the shrinking of the glaciers. centralwy.wordpress.com/201…
Gitrinec, good job. Also know that CWC did Dinwoody GPR study. Pic attached. Same article you saw (presumably) has contact info at end of write-up. May be worth it to call.

They used 70-something (?) points; must have been some on Bonney - Gannet route if trying to measure mass (surface to bedrock).

Pic of GPR; very difficult, must hand-drag. Many transects required & a lot of rocky terrain; can interrupt (false negatives, false positives) desired final signature map but am sure they try to correct for that. Difficult to do, but they know what they are doing.

Trying to figure out where this is; not on Bonney - Gannett arm, I think at base of middle arm? Very steep high terrain to get these kitchen appliance-size rocks enjoying the rocket ride down snow/ice.

Probably not there when Andrew was traveling this area years ago??

Andrew Carson wrote:And the glaciers... get on 'em while you can. After an absence of some years I found myself 'trapped' by vertical morainal debris, wondering how the hell I ever got onto and off of the glaciers but never noticed this pile... then, thinking about it, it came to me -- "Wow, these things are shrinking fast!" Twenty feet of ice gone? Or more.
Andrew, any idea where the CWC photo was taken on Dinwoody (see photo in this post). They have apparently done multiple-spot (70+) Ground Penetrating Radar (GPR) studies of Gannett & Dinwoody. Ginrinec knows something of both, I know of the Dinwoody (but only the Bonney - Gannett route) being GPR mapped; maybe by CWC; University of Oregon doing a lot of work in the general area...lots of studies going on.

Probably studying mass and mass shrinkage by measuring current ice (excluding snow, presumably) depth to bedrock. (This area has dropped 40' vertical feet of ice since I started traveling back in the way. Astounding; as you say: right before our eyes.

DavisMeschke wrote:".....the winds I spent most of the summer in the Titcomb and Dinwoody glacier area. Cheers
Davis: Have you traveled the bottom of the center-most, very steep (at the top) arm? Actually I think three arms join to form one in the last few years? If so, do you recognize the CWC GPS photo?

See aerial pic of this area I posted upstring (small photo) for recon.

Central Wyoming College using GPR (ground penetrating radar) on Dinwoody; date unknown.
DavisMeschke Guillotine · · Pinedale, WY · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 225

I have been down there. I'm saw some pretty huge crevasses there this summer. It's directly across from the middle arm but on the opposite side of the glacier. In that spot the ice was maybe 30-40 ft deep and I could see to the bottom of some of the larger crevasses to get a glimpse of what looked like frozen rubble.

Andrew Carson · · Wilson, WY · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,520

Warbonnet, as to location of the pic you reference, the CWC one, no I can't really tell where it is... or have enough detail to be useful.

coldfinger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 55
Warbonnet wrote: Apologies but must correct this: crevasses indeed parallel if rotate Dinwoody Glacier 90 degrees, otherwise by far, most crevasses approached 90 degrees.
How so?

Lateral crevasses aren't bergshrunds and they are there coming off Bonney. and

Both branches of the glacier shown in the pic above run across your direction of travel, although it is true in getting down off Bonney you will be going with that fork before it turns to the NE and drops down to its terminus.

Or put another way, last I checked Dinwoody does not run parallel to the divide......
Gary Stoker · · Fort Belvoir, VA · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 215

Warbonnet, I sent CWC a message and asked about available data, so we shall see. It was a part of a study between them and North Dakota University, some study on Ice as well.

Gary Stoker · · Fort Belvoir, VA · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 215

I'll have my 4 season tent by next week!!

Gary Stoker · · Fort Belvoir, VA · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 215

I've gotten my own custom maps updated for my GPS, Warbonnet, no I don't have a way to get weather data on my GPS unfortunately, Though I think I'll pickup a Handheld Portable weather station, I'll try and Mark as many obstacles that I come across along the way on the GPS and take pictures if not frozen, lol. DavisMeschke, you'll have to let me know how things go for you there in February.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Andrew Carson wrote:Warbonnet, as to location of the pic you reference, the CWC one, no I can't really tell where it is... or have enough detail to be useful.

Andrew, it just looks too damn familiar.....I think I know it but don't. Not sure but I think Gitrinec may be pursuing GWC for info.

My geo-head friends working on the Dinwoody are up in the real melting stuff, ie., Greenland so a bit out of touch with them. Should hear from them soon.

I know they measured creep rate on the Bonney -Gannet route and is gaining speed. That means there is a lot of lubrication ice-bedrock interface but it's still going faster than it should be compared to the other arms.

Winston Churchill, the famous glacierologist, once said of the Dinwoody: "It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma."
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Gitrinec wrote:Warbonnet, I sent CWC a message and asked about available data, so we shall see. It was a part of a study between them and North Dakota University, some study on Ice as well.
Gitrinec, heard back from them?
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Gitrinec wrote:I'll have my 4 season tent by next week!!
Excellent. What did you get, weight, double wall, etc?
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
DavisMeschke wrote:I have been down there. I'm saw some pretty huge crevasses there this summer. It's directly across from the middle arm but on the opposite side of the glacier. In that spot the ice was maybe 30-40 ft deep and I could see to the bottom of some of the larger crevasses to get a glimpse of what looked like frozen rubble.
Are you saying that you think you could see the big crevasses to rubble level? What are the dimensions (roughly of those puppies? Was it a full on field or spotty (not that "spotty" necessarily means it wasn't a field?)

Dicey to get near enough to check them out; presumably not because you could look into them. Any dark ones, i.e., on the black, or fade-to deep blue, bottomless?

Have you been on Knifepoint Glacier yet (over Indian Pass, south of Titcomb). Haven't been there in years (that's where my buddy still is and refuses to come out) but there were world-class monsters about 10 years ago...climber's right. Have wondered if they have collapsed.....ie, walls touching, lips caved.

Once crawled up to a 90 angle view, and in celebration of the awe, dropped my big cannon ball camera into it......watched it disappear straight down. Thought it was very cool to watch it.

If you've been there, and the monsters are still hungry, how do they compare to the ones you saw on Dinwoody?
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Gitrinec, DavisMeschke, and Andrew,

Did you guys put all the summer & winter images of the moat in winter and get the idea (at least from what I've seen in the past, however, both were high snow winters.)

I still cannot figure out the debris in the middle of the glacier before the terrain looks steeper. If hallucinate just to the right of it (need to enlarge the pic), it looks like an avalanche runout.

Andrew, have you seen avalanches here? I have not but the terrain above could let loose a big one I suppose.

Dinwoody moat in winter towards Bonney Pass, climber's right

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
DavisMeschke wrote:I had no idea the moat was so dangerous. Can you explain why this is? I assume this is the same moat you traverse before you start heading up the snowfield on your way to gooseneck pinnacle? In the summer months, it was a nice break from hopping over the small crevasses that littered the middle of Dinwoody. I can see that a fall down this would be consequential but I found it to be obvious enough to be a manageable hazard.
DavisMeschke,

See why now the moat can be so dangerous? I think two pics show it in winter....., however, as per previous post, I've only seen it like that in heavy snow years (even in medium snow years, the moat cornice can really build up; have always wondered what it would be like to camp at the bottom of the moat in high winds. No BBQing
Gary Stoker · · Fort Belvoir, VA · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 215

No I haven't heard back from CWC, some of those studies only sell their data unfortunately, but who knows.. It's a double wall tent but remarkably about 4.6 pounds, I didn't get one of the overly well known ones, so Snow caves may end up being my friend, I put it up already to check it out, it seems pretty sturdy, I'm not sure how well it ventilates yet though. I think I'm going to end up needing some kind of gear storage for all the extra stuff I've bought. I'm working on doing an overlay of the markups you did and adding it on top of my custom topo maps.

Tent

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
DavisMeschke wrote: One thing I have learned it how unaware you are of oncoming storms while on the glacier and while approaching the bergshrund. On my first attempt, I was caught by a large storm while descending from the snow bridge. I'm lucky I was able to get out. I had only summer gear and was forced to sit out a snow storm in nothing but thin soft shell pants and a rain jacket. This is the scariest aspect of Gannett IMO.
I thought for awhile re: your comment about being caught in a snow storm ....with (not the right gear) and how you found it the scariest aspect of Gannett.

I agree. Arguably there are others, i.e., whiteout, flying lessons into crevasses, etc. but we've all been where you were: caught, damn caught.

I think there are few things so awful....the slow creep that it's serious, hoping for a break in the weather that never comes.

It was probably that very thing that prompted me in leaning how to dig a snow cave, as weird as that may be. Need not be the palatial one I described. "Touching the Void" shows (I think) Simon Yates in a small "tube" dug inside the steep snow.

That's all you need really to give you a chance at least. It is a lot of work but in the circumstances you were in (I doubt you'll do that again but we all have done so), that may have been the best (not knowing what tools you had, i.e., even a piolet).

Because it sounds like you will be in the envious position of being up there for awhile, you might try practicing snow caving it, just so you get an idea of it and esp. if you come across someone in a life/death situation, you'll know what to do.

Condition-dependent, they either work, do not work, are miserable, or worthless or all of the above. Wet spring snow is one thing (but can still practice), cold & sugary snow a super drag to build a snowcave, sometimes impossible. Usually harder snow found deeper but that's the problem; drifts can be the best place to build one but can be no end to sugary stuff.

Glad you toughed it out.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
DavisMeschke wrote: I would also be interested in picking your brain about the mixed lines on Helen and Fremont that you mentioned. I'm aware of Tower 1 Gully but don't know of others. I've scouted a quite nice looking mixed line on the West face of Dinwoody Peak but that's about it. Again, I'll post some pictures in a bit. I need to go through old photos and topos to give you an accurate description.
Like everywhere, there used to be "good stuff" everywhere. I think the toughest mixed line I've seen and done is on Sulphur Peak (near Split Mountain) but a serious venture to get there; is on the west side of the divide, off trail near Stroud Peak but you can find it on a map. It was still in about 15 years ago first week of Sept. Deep in the cleft, scary. No idea if it is still there.

Re: the lines on Helen (one might still exist....the best known....I think three long rope stretching pitches?) and a few on Fremont but I think they are gone.

There are a lot of mixed lines everywhere; the problem is getting to them (bergschrund problems mostly, I guess), how safe are they (?), i.e., with climate change, it's dicey, yet, any ice & esp. mixed stuff is dicey anyway.

Even though I mentioned them (by mistake) in a forum post here and in case you read about them, I would not try the (unrecorded) mixed lines in Gannett east face. Took a lot of us years to get them up (one more to go but may not ever be finished). They are not even hero mixed, we rated them ("SMCRxxCD"). Scary Mixed Crappy Rock xx (double extreme) Certain Death. Last of the four we did we added a WTF to the end.

I think there are now more potential great mixed lines in the Winds due to climate change. More H20 running down thin cracks but have to timed just right temperature wise.

If I were hanging out in the Winds more in winter than the old days, that is what I would be looking for: mixed lines. I've watched some come in (never done, or rather sure -- could be wrong) on Squaretop, near the Monolith, even maybe Lizard Head....can't remember.

You're young enough to go bag those while we old men read about your routes in Kelsy's next guide (or, more likely a new guide to mixed lines in the Winds. A ton waiting).
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Gitrinec wrote:No I haven't heard back from CWC, some of those studies only sell their data unfortunately, but who knows.. It's a double wall tent but remarkably about 4.6 pounds, I didn't get one of the overly well known ones, so Snow caves may end up being my friend, I put it up already to check it out, it seems pretty sturdy, I'm not sure how well it ventilates yet though. I think I'm going to end up needing some kind of gear storage for all the extra stuff I've bought. I'm working on doing an overlay of the markups you did and adding it on top of my custom topo maps.
Am not familiar with it. Moisture in a winter tent is the bane of winter camping. Counterintuitively (but now experientially), I've learned over many hard years of 100+mile winter ski tours in Yellowstone, etc. that winter camping & climbing ends up adding to pack loads, not lightening them as in summer cuz you are eating food.

When in super cold, it's impossible to get ice off just about everything, especially tents, regardless of ventilation. Have tried all the tricks and all made everything worse, i.e.. trying to bring the stove inside the tent, melt off the icy liner, etc. Nope...all just gets wetter and then freezes.

My experience is that one can take off for a serious 100 mile, dead January, coldest spot in lower 48 (next to summit of Mt. Washington) trip with a 75-lb pack and end the trip (if you do) having gained 10 - 15 lbs in weight, especially if you have frozen ropes. If a non-dry, thick side rope is, say, 8 lbs, add another 4+, even double the weight. Recommend leaving it on way out. Screw it. If you don't have a super-dry rope, steal if you have to....worth it.

Don't know what to advise....it's sort of experience.

I am drivable to the Winds so I throw a lot of crap into my car and decide in Pinedale what I'm taking/leaving. Better sense of the weather and am sure DavisMeschke should be dialed into it (but Winds are the Winds ...they do what they want).

First hurdle to overcome is whether the road is plowed to the trail entrance. If not (call ahead), am sure the Outdoor shop can help arrange a snowmobile ride in.

Are you a drivable distance to Pinedale or do you have to fly? Can you walk there?

Can't see the tent well enough: does it have means to really tie it down, i.e., places where you can place cord (specifically for that purpose) and stake it out besides it just being free standing? Important.

Single or double wall?

I like the shape.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Do you still want me to do the wand thing? I have a couple of pics that might help and can (if I discipline myself enough) make it short. Bad wands are just that....bad. Good wands are not good, they are great.

Let me know, I have the time to put a "how to" together w/o it being lengthy.

Re: your mental readiness to snow cave it if need be is IMO super smart, as in smart. My experience (always the hard way) is that I wish I knew how to do even a simple one decades ago....fabulous....and can save one's butt and that's just a no brainer.

I think you have the terrain super dialed and have an idea of where you could build one. I think I said in the long '"snow cave" post that I am on auto-alert whenever in the backcountry in winter re: possible snow cave spots. Habitual. You can also drop a wand here and there at possible spots.

Anxious to see your new maps (if you are going to post). Able to get a basic idea of the 'washingmachiners', otherwise known at moulins?

Let me know re: the wands.

Psyched for you!

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

I'm not sure it adds anything other than trivia to this thread, but... I visited Alexis Kelner (author of "Wasatch Tours" 1976 guide) in 1984 and he showed me pics of his winter Gannet ascent. Alexis is a great photographer, and he lugged a large format camera into the Winds on that trip. Those unpublished B+W prints impressed me more than slideshows of famous polar explorations that I've also attended.
He had some incredible pics taken while enduring high winds in Titcomb Basin.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Wyoming, Montana, Dakotas
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