Questions abouy using dyneema as a PAS

the captain is not pleased

IMO I think everyone should climb with 2 PAS, not metolius PAS but any form they want of a system to clip into an anchor them self. If someone wants o come up with a better name for it go for it.

It is great for rappelling. I have rappelled with a group of 4 onetime and I was first down clipped 2 "PAS" into the anchor (hanging belay at that) but with 3 others coming down there isn't really room for everyone to clip directly into the anchor without it becoming a mess. It was really easy to have the other 2 who came in next to clip into my PAS with preset loops and spread out for the final person to come down.

It doesn't matter how you make yours but they are really useful and nice to have. Sure you don't have to have one. Alot of people I know make their own with a sling that doesn't have extra loops on it (better if you add loops to it imo).

I like them because I never take mine off during a climb so if I run out of slings and need to build an anchor off a tree etc I know I will always have my PAS I can take off wrap the tree than clove into.

Also if someone knows of a way to clove hitch into an anchor when you are basically rapping off the end of a double rope rappel to a hanging belay let me know... but the only way I know to make it work is to PAS (once again not the metolius version, so your answer can't be to use a sling and clip yourself in that way) into the next anchor.

J Marsella wrote:You can't use the manufactured one because it makes you a gumby noob. Because yer gonna die. Because the fathers of the sport didn't have them. Because having anything on your person that has non-negligible mass and is not the climbing-functional equivalent of a Swiss Army knife / multi tool is just WRONG. So sayeth the MP elders. It is known. Valar morghulis.

Perfect!

EeT wrote:Figure it fit the topic.. are there some good reasons NOT to use the Metolius person anchor system? I have used it both slings and the manufactured p.a.s, I was just curious on opinions.

It costs more of your hard earned dollars than cheaper, more versatile, (in the case of a purcell arguably safer) alternatives. Instead, use stuff you already own: a shoulder length runner already on your rack, two opposite + opposed draws when sport climbing, purcell prusik). You can chop your purcell into bail tat if you're desperate, and it's a pretty good glacier prusik, too, without untying it. A PAS is a single purpose fancy gizmo, which is counter to the principles of "fast and light".

It's a uni-tasker. Whatever. Take it to the crag if ya already got one. No one really cares. If you really want to start analyzing your systems and cut down on extra gear in the name of going bigger, you don't need one (on those fast + light days) ;)

bearbreeder wrote:if you are gonna be cheap and give newbies something .... simply give em a 120 cm nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... this will do everything a PAS will at a fraction of the cost a PAS is the bet way to part climbers for their hard earned beer money (other than hipster dead bird crag bags) theres nothing that a PAS can do that a cheap nylon sling cant ... but it looks oh so cool when im top roping in da gym ;)

BB
Is this what yur typing about?? And will it keep me off the deck?

If so, I'll buy the beer with the money I saved.

PAS?

McHull wrote: BB Is this what yur typing about?? And will it keep me off the deck? If so, I'll buy the beer with the money I saved.

That works fine, it is weaker than a fancy store bought one due to the extra knots in the system but not really noticeable for what you will use it for (since most girth hitch them and it would likely fail at the girth before the knots).

I agree, a PAS is extra clutter and extra cost. Emphasis on the clutter.

A clove hitch is the simplest and cleanest method of connecting to an anchor in a multipitch environment. It's dynamic and infinately adjustable. The only time when you should connect to an anchor with anything other than a clove is during a rappel.

A 4' nylon runner girth-hitched to your harness with an overhand in the middle will expedite rappels. Your rappel device should be below the overhand and a locker to the anchor above. When it's time to rap, simpy rig your rappel and unclip from the anchor- all with one sling. When you arrive at the next anchor, you're already set. If you need a shorter connection, clip-in behind the over hand.

This method is excellent with new climbers as you'll be pre-rigging and stacking their devices, and giving a fireman's belay from below. It's tough to do this with anything less than a 4' runner, as your weight will be pulling against the devices of the climber(s) above you.

Related to above ^^

Do you backup the extended rappel set up? I understand the pros of what you just mentioned, but a huge con to me seems to be the fact that the extended nylon bit is not redundant. Using ropes are never redundant but our gear loops are (in a sense). Is this just an accepted risk? I.e. Body weight shouldn't break a nylon runner so I'm good?

Serious question that has kept me away from the extended rappel situation.

There's only one belay loop on most harnesses, not much difference between that and a single nylon runner. You can always basket hitch a double length as discussed earlier if you are concerned about it. Good to be thinking about redundancy but you have to also appreciate simplicity, and also realize many parts of the climbing system are not redundant. Rope, belay loop, belay carabiner, belay device, protection bolts (only redundant when you get high enough up the wall that a bolt failure would not deck you) many people don't think about it but many routes don't become redundant until the 4th or 5th bolt, especially if you fall with clipping slack.

I appreciate simplicity, which is why I'm hesitant to add an extender to my rap setup. That's one more piece of gear, that is not redudent, to add to the system.

In regard to the other points: 1) lower bolts and protection are redudant in that there's the ground to stop you, or you're belay anchor if you're >p2. You're not going >50 ft fall if you deck from the first bolt. 2) rope, belay device and carabiner, and belay loop/harness are the only pieces of non-redundant gear that we 100% need to trust all the time. 3) belay loops are beefier and more visible to me all of the time, so I trust them more to hang on all the time; the runner that was on the side of my harness grating against rock all day seems less durable and not alway as bomber (I get that nylon runners are usual 22 kn while belay loops are 15 kn, and that we always must visually inspect any gear we trust our lives with.).

All great points; I like hearing this discussion.

I don't routinely use an extended rappels either, like you said due to simplicity. Though it is falling out of style I still feel quite confident with an autoblock on the leg loop. A lot of the areas I climb at I'm either being lowered or simul rapping with gri gris. Extended rappels are great for beginning rappellers or anyone who desires a little more control.

McHull wrote: BB Is this what yur typing about?? And will it keep me off the deck? If so, I'll buy the beer with the money I saved.

poor mans PAS sling

~120 cm nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... inspect the knots every now and then for wear

the "adjustability" of all those loops on the PAS is overated since you can easily "adjust" the length enough with the knotted sling by using a single biner or a draw on the bolt when you clip in (and you should have plenty on rap .... not to mention on many chains you can adjust your length anyways

the reality on many rap stations is that youll clip the locker to one bolt and the use a biner/draw to clip to the other, and they are never perfectly equalized anyways, you can easily adjust the length with the second clip in

a nylon sling costs 5 dollahs ...

as for "redundancy" ... what you are trying to protect is against rockfall ... a nylon sling in good condition wont break at these forces .... and to be blunt none of these tethers are "redudant" against rockfall

if yr in an area with high rockfall potential on rap (canadian rockies limestone im looking at you) ... then use 2 slings, preferably in a Y config which will give you redundancy to BOTH bolts and the rap point (think an inverse rescue spider)

no "special" gear needed for this ... you can use a standard cordelette, or 2 120 cm slings ... clove hitch the biners (lockers) at the ends for some additional redundancy and adjustability if you want

;)
Y rig on harness and with device ... You can also tie 2 long slings together to make it Just be sure to clip the PROPER strands for the belay device or use a second knot

I do use an extended rappel, and a prussik backup. Folks will argue for these for safety reasons, against, well, read that epic thread yourself, but both are also, for me,just way more comfortable and enjoyable. Extending the rappel gets the device far enough away to be able to see what's going on, weight it before committing, and away from clothing, etc. The backup lets me just have a hand on a knot to control the rap, rather than running ropes. Plus, I can really slow the rap down, and stop just for the heck of it if I want.

I don't have a PAS per se, this gumby noob has a sooo easy to adjust Purcell to use for that and other things. Really like it, too. : )

I've said this in plenty of other places, so why not here as well.

I think some kind of installed tether is useful. Of the available possibilities, I like the Sterling Chain Reactor the best. I'm not rich, but I do have a job and affording one is not a problem. BB is right that various knotted cords and webbing will do the same thing, although they might be either less adjustable or have some knots that increase their ungainliness. I don't mind paying for a sewn version.

Quite a few people posting opinions don't understand what such tethers are good for (and what they aren't good for).

• Multipitch efficiency. If the leader arrives at a stance and places a good piece, she tethers in to that, calls off belay, and continues building the anchor. Meanwhile, the second, who is also tethered to the best piece of their anchor, takes everything down except the tether and is ready to climb as soon as the leader calls on belay. I should emphasize that the tethers are extra connections and that the rope is the primary anchor connection for both leader and second. I originally learned this from Mark Twight's Extreme Alpinism. Twight isn't known for lugging extra encumbrances or peeling the noobie price-stickers off his gear.
• Cleaning while seconding. It isn't particularly unusual for the second to need both hands to clean a piece. Getting held in place by the belay can be problematic and sometimes impossible. Whenever possible I try to hang from a piece I've placed. Having an installed tether ready to go, long enough to place a piece at some distance, and adjustable enough to hang in the right place saves a ton of time and effort.
• Improvised aid. If you can't free the moves or the sky opens up, being able to switch rapidly and efficiently to aiding mode is another substantial time and effort saver.
• Emergency rope ascents. It helps to have a tether ready to go if you have to prussik a line, and the tether can also be used to make a foot loop.
• Quick transitions when climbing unroped. If the route involves unroped climbing, having an installed tether makes it quicker and more efficient to get anchored and get ready for roping up or rappelling.
• Untying and retying at a stance. For example, if a party of three shares the leading, there will be a certain amount of swapping of rope ends. Having the tether in place and ready to go makes this faster, more efficient, and safer.
• Rappels. I think everyone should have some kind of tether in place, either an installed one or an improvised sling, at the start of a rappel. You want to fully weight your device while still tethered in a take just a moment to make sure everything is rigged correctly. A tether also allows you to use both hands climb into position on awkward starts.
• Self-rescue maneuvers. All kinds of utility...

In all these applications, you've got the tether even if you are seconding and the leader has all the slings or your are leading but have used up all your runners on an especially wandering pitch or you are climbing unroped and have pinned all your gear underneath the coil you are carrying.

Although someone mistakenly called such tethers single-purpose, the reality is that they provide a lot of versatility and, used as described, will speed up many processes. They are a convenience, like belay devices. I could and have for many years used hip belays or Munter hitches, but I find belay devices a useful if hardly necessary improvement. Same with installed tethers.

As for being an "encumbrance," get real. You wrap it around your waist and never notice it. Ever. Considering the load of crap most climbers regularly lug up their climbs, a thin chain of webbing around the waist can't possibly be a serious issue.

The Purcell prussik competes with the chain-style devices. For the range of applications I mentioned, the chains are better for two reasons. (1) The have a bigger range of adjustment, and (2) they are easier to adjust when loaded. In particular, a Purcell prussik is awful if you are trying to use it as a second for cleaning gear. I tried one for a while and took the first opportunity that occurred to rap off it and leave it behind.

As for dyneema vs. nylon, it is mostly a non-issue, because you really don't want to be taking any kind of fall on either of them. Still, given that nylon is better at absorbing and withstanding impacts and is typically cheaper, it is hard to see why anyone would choose dyneema, unless water is a significant presence, in which case dyneema's lower absorbtion could be an advantage.

If all you climb is single pitches and gym routes, fughettaboutit.

well here is why commercial tethers are single purpose ... at least the metolius PAS

mammut 8mm phoenix half rope with PAS "friction" knot

mammut 8mm phoenix half rope with nylon sling "friction" knot

and for big footed folks, the PAS links are something that arent the easiest to get your foot in and stand up ... at least the older version i have

note that the 5 dollahs nylon sling with 2 overhands doesnt have any of these issues ... even if you cant untie it, itll hold hedden/kleimheist with ease for ascending and self rescue, and your entire shoe

again theres nothing a fancy $$$$$ commercial PAS can do that a simple nylon sling cant

;)

Yes perhaps...not an issue for me because I always have two short prussick loop cords (and a small knife) in a chalk bag pocket, so I don't have to rely on friction knots from any kind of sling. In any case, in dire straits friction knots can be formed using the rope itself, as you well know because you posted very useful shots of it.

The Chain Reactor makes a pretty good footloop, but you have to ungirth it from the harness and use the girthing loop for your foot.

I couldn't care less if anyone uses some kind of installed tether or not, or if they do whether they use a commercial one or a homemade one. My only point was to try to make the discussion realistic by providing a fuller set of criteria for making an intelligent choice.

bahhhh ... im not about to let this gift of a PAS thread right before new years go away quietly without a bear breeding rant !!!

one thing i have noticed is that there are quite a few folks ive seen on multi with bolted anchors who go off and use a PAS/daisy ... and dont clove in with the rope ...

hell ive even seen it on trad anchors

what i find very interesting is that many newer folks seem to think they NEED a commercial PAS ... and use it instead of learning basic ropework skills

we wont even talk about the 50 dollahs metolius anchor chain or 20 dollahs metolius premade prussiks

how one can do multi without being proficient at cloving, building an anchor, or tying double fishies ... i have no idea ... but its happening quite a bit out here

;)

I totally agree with you about that BB. I always adjust things so that the tether is not load-bearing, i.e. has a little slack in it so that all load goes to the rope. I want the rope to be absorbing impacts.

This is potentially critical in certain worst-case multipitch scenarios. A factor-2 fall onto the belayer will throw the belayer and falling leader onto the anchor strand. That is not a situation in which you want something as stiff as either a dyneema or a nylon tether to be transmitting the load to the anchor.

bearbreeder wrote:well here is why commercial tethers are single purpose...

I'm not sure they are all that single purpose. You've illustrated one purpose they're unsuitable, but all the other uses of slings still apply with a pas. Need to extend a piece or thread or join two pieces in your anchor, a pas is about as fine as a sling.

I carry a short and long prussik in case I end up needing to ascend so that particular use case of a pas is moot to me. Now that I think about it - that long prussik also does double duty in place of a sling much more often than its used as a prussik.

I own one of the earlier metolius pas, I'm neutral towards it. If money is a factor I'd advise against buying one.

Ancent wrote:Related to above ^^ Do you backup the extended rappel set up? I understand the pros of what you just mentioned, but a huge con to me seems to be the fact that the extended nylon bit is not redundant. Using Thereropes are never redundant but our gear loops are (in a sense). Is this just an accepted risk? I.e. Body weight shouldn't break a nylon runner so I'm good? Serious question that has kept me away from the extended rappel situation.

I'm not concerned about the strength of a 22kn girth hitched NYLON sling. However, I often unclip from an anchor and clip the end of the 4' runner back to my belay loop and clip my atc to both sides of the overhand; this creates a redundancy but is a little bumbly.

Extended rappels have other benefits, too. They're smoother. WAY smoother. And your belay loop is left free for other things, such as a rappel back-up (which is also smoother and more comfortable when it isn't attached to a leg loop).

Clean. Simple. Bomber. Stuff you already have on you. As a guide, I preach the clove hitch (many of us do, at least in this area). And the extended rappel is a tool that helps us to move faster and better manage ourselves and our clients (example: as a leader pre-hang a locker on the anchor, you can have your second cloved-in and off belay immediately when they arrive at your anchor). A PAS, commercially produced or hand made is just clutter.

One note on belay loops:

Belay loops are constructed of one strand of tubular webbing doubled over itself, stitched along the edges, and bar tacked. This creates two independent strands- I've witnessed 20 yo belay loops test (break) at 6,000 lbs!