Building Own Quick Draws

Hi,

Built my own quick draws with the following:

Black Diamond Neutrino
Petzl Express Sling
Mad Rock Super Tech Keylock Straight

All threaded properly.

Is there any safety concerns?

Thanks in advance for replies!

good 2 go

That will work just fine! My only beef is that I'm not fond of how Neutrinos clip, it might just be I'm not used to them.

Small hands, need small clips. haha. thanks guy!

1. "Yer gunna die"
2. "Send it to me and I'll test it out"
3. "It's only $10 worth of equipment; is your life worth more than that?"
4. "NOOB!"
5. "In the Gunks that draw would be 5.4"
6. "Use the rope-- you don't need that extra stuff on your harness!"
7. "Quick draws are neither."

PS Copy and paste is a blessing

Amanda Tay wrote:Hi, Built my own quick draws with the following: Black Diamond Neutrino Petzl Express Sling Mad Rock Super Tech Keylock Straight All threaded properly. Is there any safety concerns? Thanks in advance for replies!

If you can't judge the integrity of a draw using components from 3 different manufacturers, how can you conclude that you threaded the draw properly.

Seriously, I hope I just got trolled by Eleanor.

Meh - thats not building a quick draw - that is assembling one. I thought you sewed yer own.

There should not be any safety concerns unless you assembled them wrong - which has been done before.

rocknice2 wrote: If you can't judge the integrity of a draw using components from 3 different manufacturers, how can you conclude that you threaded the draw properly. Seriously, I hope I just got trolled by Eleanor.

God forbid someone ask a confirming question.

Amanda Tay wrote:Small hands, need small clips. haha. thanks guy!

I've climbed with plenty of girls with small hands and they also prefer larger biners to clip. It will also be a disadvantage for any climber you climb with that's climbing the same route...

I guess it's good for you if you plan to lead every route and clean the route on your way down and have your partner lead it with a different set of draws

Jan Tarculas wrote: ...It will also be a disadvantage for any climber you climb with that's climbing the same route... I guess it's good for you if you plan to lead every route and clean the route on your way down and have your partner lead it with a different set of draws

Or it will be good for her if she chooses to climb with somebody who won't bitch about clipping the draws she hung for them ha. They sound like stylish draws, have fun.

10 out of 10 climbers who use alpine draws die, FACT!!!

rocknice2 wrote: If you can't judge the integrity of a draw using components from 3 different manufacturers, how can you conclude that you threaded the draw properly. Seriously, I hope I just got trolled by Eleanor.

+1

I think the best anyone in this thread can say is one could assemble a satisfactory draw from those components. Whether you have or not is an unknown to us.

A picture of the draws would have greatly increased the ability of people to point out any safety concerns.

Why build your own? Did you have a bunch of extra gear lying around?

Amanada...ditto on what rocknice2 & RM stated. Hard to assess without photos, but utilizing gear from three reputable manufacturers and not knowing whether you've assembled a safe, reliable quickdraw is troubling at best. Google Tito Traversa (may he RIP) and have an experienced, competent climber assess your work.

Needless to say the individual gear is all good. if you have concerns about correct threading of the 'biners through webbing and not rubber, put your harness on and hang body weight from each 'draw, I'm sure something incorrectly threaded would give you some clues.

Advice about a second pair of experienced eyes is also good. As is the advice to post photographs. We're here to try and help.

i think the nature of the keeper on the petzl spirit would make it difficult to thread it worng (like in the previous post) IIRC the neutrino and that mad rock have relatively wide areas for the sling, unlike the super tight and curved area you would see on a biner like the helium which works best with dyneema dog bones, so i imagine your set up would work well with nylon dogs like the spirit. You could hang a rope of a pull up bar and hang off all the draws or something to check em if you wanted or whatever. The issue with threading your draws incorrectly is if you only have the rubber keeper threaded and not the nylon (i'm sure your fine its easy to see and sounds like the op is aware of the issue) but if you thread just the rubber it wont hold even body weight so is easy to test for.

PS i hate those mad rock biners cause of the hard angle on the nose, but they are still safe

A notchless biner on the bolt side can in theory be "safer"

dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/c…

A nose hooked biner can break at 2-3 KN ... Easily attainable in a fall

;)

I think if someone is silly enough to climb past a nose hooked biner it's only a matter of time...

Dustin Stotser wrote:I think if someone is silly enough to climb past a nose hooked biner it's only a matter of time...

Michael Erickson and Mike Root roped up at around 2 p.m. on May 13 to climb Miss Prissy (5.9+), a classic sport climb at the Jimmywood area of Foster Falls, near Chattanooga, Tennessee. Erickson, 22 climbed to the third bolt and prepared to clip it. Feeling out of position, he shifted his stance and his foot slipped. He plummeted past the second bolt and was suddenly wrenched sideways. He continued falling to the ground—about 40 feet in total—and landed on a rock, which drove into his ribs and the left side of his chest. Root, 27 quickly ascertained that his partner was alive, but in pain, and pulled out his cell phone to call 911. Erickson dissuaded him, however.

“By the time Mike pulled out his phone and was ready to call, I felt like I could at least get up,” he wrote us in an email. “It was scary as shit and hurt like hell. We thought about hiking out, but I elected to keep climbing since I didn’t want to be afraid of the wall.”

The two looked around and found a broken carabiner on the ground 25 feet away from the climb. It had broken off—sheared at the nose hook—at the second bolt.

Erickson continued climbing that day despite sore and bruised ribs. Less than a week later, he was back to normal.

ANALYSIS

In a blog entry a few weeks before Erickson’s accident, Kolin Powick, the director of global quality at Black Diamond, Inc., described a likely explanation for this carabiner failure.

“I’ve seen and/or heard of only a handful of carabiners that have broken in the field,” Powick wrote, “and most have broken in the same way-—nose-hooked. What is nose-hooked? It’s just like it sounds, the nose of the carabiner gets hung-up on a sling, Stopper wire or bolt hanger.”

Powick explained that while carabiners are very strong (a minimum of 4,496 pounds in a major—axis loading or 1,574 pounds in an open-gate loading), a nose-hooked carabiner can fail at less than 500 pounds, a force attainable even in a light bounce-test (dynamic loading).

The combination of an open-gate scenario with the cantilever causes an off-axis loading and excessive torque that results in a failure at low loads.

Mike Root sent his carabiner to Powick, who, based on the location of the break, concluded that the failure was due to a nose-hook scenario.

“Black Diamond tests a lot of carabiners,” Powick wrote in the same, earlier blog. “We not only understand the loads at which carabiners break, but also the … location of breakages … so it’s possible to look at where a carabiner is broken and have a good idea of how it was loaded. A nose-hooked carabiner will most often break at the top of the spine, while open- and closed-gate failures typically occur at the bottom of the spine, and minor-axis failures almost always occur at the gate.”

PREVENTION

When you’re engrossed in the moves of a climb, or negotiating a desperate clip, it is very easy to accidentally hook the nose of the carabiner and move past the improperly hung draw without noticing the flub. Sometimes you might rub the hung draw with your body or kick it as you pass, turning a properly hung quickdraw into a nose-hooked time bomb. The only prevention in these cases is awareness. Treat your quickdraw placements like natural protection. Visually inspect them and only move on when you know that they are properly oriented, with the sling aligned and both gates closed.

The surest way to prevent nose-hooking is to use carabiners that feature a “keylock” closure—picture a ball-and-socket joint with the ball on the gate and the socket on the nose. Because these biners have no notch on the nose that can snag bolt hangers, slings or wires, they virtually eliminate the risk of nose-hooking.


rockandice.com/lates-news/H…

bearbreeder

I wasn't trying to discredit your contribution or suggest is does not happen. I was hinting at the likely short lifespan of an inobservant climber.

You have a good point that in sport climbing where people are really pushing it, climbers can get tunnel vision and lose attentiveness. In this sense reducing possible points of failure that could be overlooked could be a good thing (using key lock biners for bolt side draws).

It's a real problem when people have a sense of ignorance towards the inherent dangers, though. Your post addresses my concerns appropriately by saying: "The only prevention in these cases is awareness. Treat your quickdraw placements like natural protection. Visually inspect them and only move on when you know that they are properly oriented, with the sling aligned and both gates closed." Not to mention shady looking bolts/hangers and filed down permadraws.

Awareness is crucial not just by the climber, but by the belay as well. Though not applicable in all situations, the belayer can easily alert the climber to back clips, feet in front of rope, nose hooked biners... The nose hooked biner in your post should have been easily noticed by the belayer being at the second bolt.

After all that, though, my sport draws do have key lock biners on the bolt side. :D

Dustin Stotser wrote:bearbreeder I wasn't trying to discredit your contribution or suggest is does not happen. I was hinting at the likely short lifespan of an inobservant climber. You have a good point that in sport climbing where people are really pushing it, climbers can get tunnel vision and lose attentiveness. In this sense reducing possible points of failure that could be overlooked could be a good thing (using key lock biners for bolt side draws). It's a real problem when people have a sense of ignorance towards the inherent dangers, though. Your post addresses my concerns appropriately by saying: "The only prevention in these cases is awareness. Treat your quickdraw placements like natural protection. Visually inspect them and only move on when you know that they are properly oriented, with the sling aligned and both gates closed." Not to mention shady looking bolts/hangers and filed down permadraws. Awareness is crucial not just by the climber, but by the belay as well. Though not applicable in all situations, the belayer can easily alert the climber to back clips, feet in front of rope, nose hooked biners... The nose hooked biner in your post should have been easily noticed by the belayer being at the second bolt. After all that, though, my sport draws do have key lock biners on the bolt side. :D

actually dustin the use of notchless biners more or less eliminated nose hooking on the bolt side

if one is just cragging and doesnt need the weight savings (all notchless biners are a smidgen heavier) then theres absolutely no reason not to use notchless on the bolt side except for a few bucks

considering nose hooking is the most common way biners go POOF according to BD ... its perhaps worth it to send an extra few bucks to eliminate this possibility

note that nose hooking can happen on wires and thin slings as well

the old mammut moses were notorious for nose hooking and breaking/bending under mild loads

heres a report from a fellow MPer ... note he says "crossloading", but its really nose hooked

I took a ~50 footer at Seneca last April. I was climbing off-route near Orangeaid (closer to the last pitch of Castor) and fell on a runout after my fifth placement. From what I've pieced together, I pulled out the top placement (a .75 cam) and cross-loaded the biner on my second placement (an offset nut), resulting in at least a 50 ft whipper that put me 15 ft below the belay. I nocked my head on the catch and was unconscious for roughly a minute thanks to my plastic helmet. Once I came to, I climbed up to the belay only to realize that something in my wrist was broken (articular radial fracture). My belay (who had been crying, thinking that she had seen me fall to my death) was adamant about bailing the gear I'd left up, so we proceeded to rap down and hike out with my bleeding head, swollen wrist, and my limp (I also nocked my heel on a ledge).

I think it was a .5 C4 that finally caught me. My top placement was crap and I never should have placed it. The crossloaded biner was bad fortune, though I've heard of other people having issues with the same biner (Mammut Moses). I bailed two cams, an offset nut, and assorted biners/slings. I'm mostly recovered now, but I carry around the cross-loaded biner to remind me not to do stupid things.

And to elaborate a bit about the failed placements, the .75 cam was in a shallow quartzite crack that was flared outward and upward. A large brass offset may have worked, but the rock was smooth enough that I shouldn't have placed anything there and I should have turned around upon realizing how runout it was.

The crossloaded biner looks like it was loaded with the wire from my offset snagged on the gate. So, when I fell on it, the force of the fall bent the gate wires and pulled out of the carabiner. Maybe I wasn't careful enough placing my trad draw, or maybe I just got unlucky when I moved past this placement.

mountainproject.com/v/gear-…



heres one from hanging a hammock